Tory Crime Bill: Budget Officer Slams Conservative's Cost Estimate

Crime Bill

First Posted: 10/06/11 04:23 PM ET Updated: 12/06/11 05:12 AM ET

OTTAWA - Parliament's independent budget officer is accusing the federal government of "total obfuscation" on the financial hit provinces will take from new criminal justice measures.

Kevin Page says a two-page cost summary released Thursday by Public Safety Minister Vic Toews doesn't serve the needs of parliamentarians or the Canadian public.

The Conservatives say their massive new crime bill, which includes nine separate pieces of legislation, will cost $78.5 million over five years, part of bigger justice agenda the government says will cost $2.7 billion.

But Page, who has been asked by the Opposition parties to cost out the bill by mid-November, told The Canadian Press the government estimate includes no methodology, no supporting information and no provincial costs.

Nor can Page find the $2.7 billion expenditure listed in any federal budget of the past two years.

"We just need so much more. It's disappointing. Parliament needs more. I think Canadians need more," said Page, who was appointed by Prime Minister Stephen Harper in 2008.

"I don't have a policy bias one way or the other where they want to do this. I look at it strictly from the point of view of a budget officer. This is a lack of transparency yet we're asking people to vote on a bill."

Toews and Justice Minister Rob Nicholson testified Thursday morning to the Commons committee studying bill C-10, which the government has dubbed the Safe Streets and Communities Act.

Nicholson urged the Conservative-dominated panel to speed the legislation through the committee process, where amendments and corrections to flawed legislation are theoretically possible.

"We are taking action to protect families, stand up for victims and hold individuals accountable," said Nicholson.

At the end of the hour-long hearing, the Conservative ministers promised to provide documentation on the cost of the legislation over five years.

What emerged later in the day set off alarms in the Parliamentary Budget Office.

"There is actually no information to support the estimates in the press release today," said Page.

"Where else can you imagine yourself going to a bank and saying 'I want $2.7 billion and here's one piece of paper. Can I have my money now?'"

Page had already agreed to a request by both the official Opposition NDP and the Liberals to try to cost out the omnibus crime bill by mid-November.

It's similar to an exercise he undertook last year on another "tough on crime" bill that eliminated two-for-one sentencing provisions for convicts who had spent extended periods in jail awaiting trial.

Government stone-walling at the time led to the contempt of Parliament vote that helped bring down Harper's minority government last spring.

The Conservatives promised on the campaign trail to repackage all the crime legislation in a single bill and pass it within 100 parliamentary sitting days. Their majority mandate has emboldened the government to swiftly fulfil that promise.

Toews was making no apologies for his government's light accounting work Thursday, telling CBC the cost totals came from his officials and "you won't get any better figures than that."

Toews also took a direct shot at Page, citing past projections by the parliamentary budget office that went awry.

"If he disagrees with us, it appears he has about a 50-50 chance of being right," said Toews.

But Page isn't directly disputing the government's projections, at least not at this point. He said he's objecting to the complete lack of transparency and justification for how the government arrived at its estimate.

KEY MEASURES IN TORY CRIME BILL:

Loading Slideshow...
  • Key Measures In Tory Crime Bill

    The bill, known as the Safe Streets and Communities Act, includes the following measures: <em>With files from The Canadian Press</em> (CP/Alamy)

  • Child Sex Offences

    Heftier penalties for sexual offences against children. The bill also creates two new offences aimed at conduct that could facilitate or enable the commission of a sexual offence against a child. (MANAN VATSYAYANA/AFP/Getty Images)

  • Drugs

    Tougher sentences for the production and possession of illicit drugs for the purposes of trafficking. (NICOLAS ASFOURI/AFP/Getty Images)

  • Violent And Young Offenders

    Tougher penalties for violent and repeat young offenders. (JOHN MACDOUGALL/AFP/Getty Images)

  • Conditional Sentences

    An end to the use of conditional sentences, or house arrest, for serious and violent crimes (GEOFF ROBINS/AFP/Getty Images)

  • Parole Hearings

    Allowing victims to participate in parole hearings. (THE CANADIAN PRESS/Adrian Wyld)

  • Pardons

    Extending ineligibility periods for applications for pardons to five years from three for summary-conviction offences and to 10 years from five for indictable offences. (Flickr: haven't the slightest)

  • Transferring Canadian Offenders

    Expanding the criteria that the public safety minister can consider when deciding whether to allow the transfer of a Canadian offender back to Canada to serve a sentence. (JOEL ROBINE/AFP/Getty Images)

  • Terror Victims

    Allowing terrorism victims to sue terrorists and their supporters, including listed foreign states, for losses or damages resulting from an act of terrorism committed anywhere in the world.(STRDEL/AFP/Getty Images)

  • Human Trafficking

    Measures to prevent human trafficking and exploitation. (LOUISA GOULIAMAKI/AFP/Getty Images)

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OTTAWA - Parliament's independent budget officer is accusing the federal government of "total obfuscation" on the financial hit provinces will take from new criminal justice measures.Kevin Page says a...
OTTAWA - Parliament's independent budget officer is accusing the federal government of "total obfuscation" on the financial hit provinces will take from new criminal justice measures.Kevin Page says a...
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This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
08:22 PM on 10/18/2011
petition.... http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-omnibus-crime-bill/
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
07:57 PM on 10/18/2011
Well... that Page who was fired from the senate (http://winnipeg.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110603/throne-speech-protester-110503/20110603/?hub=WinnipegHome) tried to warn us. She obviously had inside information on how Harper operates. I'm really sick of these corrupt politicians trying to shove their ideology down our throats while ignoring the facts. Hmmmm.... I wonder why these protests are happening all over the world.
Jack Canuckski
Canadian Observer of the passing scene
03:07 AM on 10/18/2011
What is most telling, to me, about the Harper style of government.

When confronted with the facts by their own experts, who told them that the bill was both very expensive and counter-productive, justified going ahead on the grounds that it was what they said they would do if elected.

Our 39.6% majority government is using its overwhelming national mandate to satisfy its promises to its base even though it knows that doing so is a stupid and harmful idea.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
relentless63
12:02 PM on 10/18/2011
F/F I think you've just described bad governance.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LeftyNeoCon
What happens when extreme left and right combine.
03:55 PM on 10/07/2011
I would also like to thank the Conservatives for giving me the quote I will be putting on my sign when we Occupy the Toronto Stock Exchange on October 15th.
Jack Canuckski
Canadian Observer of the passing scene
03:08 AM on 10/18/2011
Maybe too late to ask, but, what's the quote?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LeftyNeoCon
What happens when extreme left and right combine.
03:48 PM on 10/07/2011
So considering the comments below have sufficiently disembowled our Conservatives who got voted in for a majority somebody has to be willing to take up their side in this argument right?.......
...Anyone out there?
09:29 PM on 10/08/2011
Most of the people commenting here don't have a hot clue about the justice or the prison system. I don't agree with the stupid drug sentencing fro non violent offenders, that's just misguided. However, lets take a look at two for one sentencing and all the complains about getting rid of it. A guy stabs someone 40 times, it's not his first violent offence. He delays trial for as long as he can, and because it's such a nasty crime the judge gives him 5 years (it's CDA, that's likely what he'll get). He spent 1 year in pre-trial custody, so he will actually get 3 years to serve. He's eligible for parole at 1/3 and he will get statutory release at 2/3. So in reality this guy will only do 24 months of federal time. Two years to deal with his childhood traumas, substance abuse issues, and his violence. Mind you, when he's released, he can come back as many times and be released again on statutory release till he finishes the sentence. Did you know that?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LeftyNeoCon
What happens when extreme left and right combine.
11:53 PM on 10/08/2011
If what your describing was a rampant problem as opposed to a small group of a couple hundred repeat offenders as it probably is then I could see the use of this legislation. However, this bill does not allocate money to prisons so they can expand to accomodate existing populations, they are giving money out to cover the extra additions these bills will add which will only exacerbate the problem.

In four years Harper will be up for re-election and courts will be ruling prisons to release prisoners en masse like they did in California simply because it wasn't humane for them to be confined like that. That release in California was 40,000 specifically violent inmates but California jails were at almost 300% capacity.

B.C jails are already pushing 200% and all of Ontario's jails are at 100%.

This is a chance Harper has to show true fiscal conservatism but it won't happen.
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CanadjunBeef
Remember Jesus, the radical liberal
03:08 PM on 10/07/2011
Just what we need, a distracting and expensive War on Drugs. A minimum year in jail for someone who grows six plants at home. I was just in the Netherlands, where you can legally buy pre-rolled, high-quality cannabis for under $4 Canadian a joint. If you are inclined to grow your own, there are seed stores where you can choose the variety you want to produce. I did not notice chaos in the streets or any social dysfunction. Stop legislating morality, Harper.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
relentless63
12:06 PM on 10/18/2011
F/F
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CanadjunBeef
Remember Jesus, the radical liberal
03:03 PM on 10/07/2011
I blame the voters. If you re-elect a Conservative party that was forced into an election for being secretive, and then hand that same party a majority, you have rewarded wrongdoing. Ironically, at the same time this crime bill imposes long minimum sentences, it also establishes a five-year study into the cost of imposing minimum sentences. I always thought you should study an idea first and legislate it later.
Jack Canuckski
Canadian Observer of the passing scene
02:39 AM on 10/18/2011
I blame an electoral system in which 39.6% of the voters can elect a majority government.

There is something fundamentally wrong with such a system. It cannot deliver the kind of government that the majority, the 60.4% that voted against this government, voted for.
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01:51 PM on 10/07/2011
If Harper is going to dump the cost of this misguided idea onto the provinces the provinces should have the option of opting out of this wasteful a very poorly thought out plan.
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
unclelew
02:43 PM on 10/07/2011
My understanding is that there has been no effort whatsoever by the Tea … er … Harper Government ™ to even start thinking about the infrastructure that will be needed to support the nuts and bolts of this boneheaded legislation.
This has the potential to be as at least a big a boondoggle as the $30 billion or $40 billion — whatever — CF 35 fiasco.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LeftyNeoCon
What happens when extreme left and right combine.
03:44 PM on 10/07/2011
FnF

And that F35 fiasco is on-going.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
relentless63
12:08 PM on 10/18/2011
F/F
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Transitteer
and another thing . . .
01:50 PM on 10/07/2011
Finances in Torydom - typical right-wing way of planning. Pick the numbers you like out of the air. Worked for Mulroney - all is did was Quadruple the National Debt and bring in the G.S.T. to help pay it down. Conservatives = Big Spenders (not money managers). Balanced budgets seem to only happen with Liberal and NDP Governments. Wonder why? And why the Myth of Conservative Fiscal Management? It's just a Myth.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Paul Stacey
Kill guns, not children.
01:35 PM on 10/07/2011
Toews was making no apologies for his government's light accounting work Thursday, telling CBC the cost totals came from his officials and "you won't get any better figures than that.".

I don't know if I should be laughing or crying.

The sheer bloody arrogance of this lot is nothing short of breathtaking.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
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12:45 PM on 10/07/2011
Over 5 million Canadians smoke pot at some point in a month.
Over 6 plants means jail time.
What are we being told by this?
Grow 5 plants on your own which takes a lot of work or find a guy
with 5 plants to buy from?
Do you have to get rid of all of the evidence before growing your
next 5 plants?
If you leave the 5 plants outside and someone steals them are you
still responsible for them?
If you grow them inside can you write off the loss of a bedroom?
Do male plants count as part of the 5 plants?
Can you trade plants or have non pot smokers grow plants for you?
How big does a plant have to be before it is considered a plant?
If someone throws seeds in your backyard are you liable?
When doing time in jail is it possible to take a correspondence course
in horticulture?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
gx5000
Life's too short, be happy..
03:00 PM on 10/07/2011
Not a big pot fan, having said that, it's rather a silly step backwards....
Tired of Officers dying over grow ups and raids over pot...

As a society, we will rise above any negative effects it has over the whole.
Individually, those who can will benefit from it, or would of, but with this bill we see a tightening of the loop, again.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
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04:17 PM on 10/07/2011
Don't let the facts confuse you.
From 1961 to 2009 133 police officers have lost their lives in the line of duty.
Of those that lost their lives only 3 police officers were involved in a drug related incident.
That's 3 officers in the past 48 years.
So if you are tired of officers dying over grow ops and raids it is all in your imagination.
All you had to do was google "Canadian police officers who lost their lives in the line of duty" and Stats Canada would give you the numbers.
Robberies, domestic disputes, investigating a firearms complaint, traffic violations,
unprovoked, investigating a disturbance, revenge, are just some of the reasons well
ahead of anything to do with pot.

Life is short. Don't spead nonsense.
09:40 PM on 10/07/2011
What if you throw a handfull of seeds into someones backyard and 6 pop up . Does that mean that they could face jail time .
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Tony Pepperoni
Where did all the good Republicans go?
12:45 PM on 10/07/2011
All I can do is shake my head. How many times did we warn the conservative voters that Harper's government was a wolf in sheep's clothing while he had a minority? And we have only just begun.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
gx5000
Life's too short, be happy..
03:00 PM on 10/07/2011
Americans are sneaky !
Has anyone asked for Harper's Birth Certificate yet ?

(System Error - Sarcasm Font not Found)
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Tony Pepperoni
Where did all the good Republicans go?
03:15 PM on 10/07/2011
I have no doubt he comes from Canada, but I suspect he may have been hatched.
12:20 PM on 10/07/2011
Let it happen. Everyone should shut up and let them hang themselves.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
gx5000
Life's too short, be happy..
03:02 PM on 10/07/2011
I know you know we'll be drenched in blood under them right ?
Oh well, it's up to us to find real leaders and put them into office....

Cheers, and have a great week end in the Best country in the World !
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
CHMB
What's long and brown and sticky? A Stick.
12:10 PM on 10/07/2011
This is my prediction.

Crime rates under the Harper Government are going to increase. They'll say it's because they got tough on crime, look at these stats to prove it. In all reality, the real reason for the increase in crime, will be due to the Conservatives ever expanding definition of crime.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
gx5000
Life's too short, be happy..
03:02 PM on 10/07/2011
You forgot the Private Prisons on the Horizon, get your money out of
RRSP's and get ready to invest...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
CHMB
What's long and brown and sticky? A Stick.
03:49 PM on 10/07/2011
No kidding. Financial Advisors will be employees of CSC.