Canadian Submarines May Be Scrapped

Nuclear Sub

First Posted: 10/27/11 10:37 PM ET Updated: 10/29/11 06:27 PM ET


CBC News has learned the Harper government is considering buying nuclear submarines to replace its problem-plagued fleet of diesel-powered subs, all of which are currently awash in red ink and out of service for major repairs.


The four second-hand subs Jean Chrétien’s Liberal government bought from the British navy in 1998 for $750 million were portrayed at the time as the military bargain of the century.


Instead, they have spent almost all of their time in naval repair yards, submerging Canadian taxpayers in an ocean of bills now totalling more than $1 billion and counting.


One of the subs, HMCS Chicoutimi, has been in active service of the Royal Canadian Navy exactly two days in the 13 years since it was purchased from the Brits.


The Chicoutimi caught fire on its maiden voyage from the U.K. to Canada, killing one sailor and injuring a number of others.


It has been in the repair shop ever since, and isn’t expected back in service for at least another two years and $400 million more in repairs and retrofits.


National Defence said this week that one of the subs, the Victoria, could be back in service in 2012.


The other three would remain out of service until at least 2013. One may not be out of the repair shop until 2016.


By that time, the submarines will have cost taxpayers an estimated $3 billion, almost enough to have bought all new subs in the first place.


But the real problem is that by the time the whole fleet is in active service for the first time in 2016, the submarines will already be almost 30 years old with only perhaps 10 years of life left in them.


High-ranking sources tell CBC News the government is actively considering cutting its losses on the dud subs, and mothballing some if not all of them.


Defence Minister Peter MacKay is hinting they might be replaced with nuclear submarines that could patrol under the Arctic ice, something the existing diesel-electric subs cannot do.


Outside the Commons this week, MacKay told CBC News the government is anxious to have its submarine fleet fully operational as soon as possible, providing a “very important capability for the Canadian Forces.”


But asked whether the government might look at other subs, MacKay said: “Well there was a position taken some time ago to go with diesel-electric.


“But you know, in an ideal world, I know nuclear subs are what's needed under deep water, deep ice.”


Nuclear submarines $3B each


Nuclear submarines are hugely expensive — they start around $3 billion apiece — and it is unclear where the Harper government would find that kind of money, much less how it could justify such an enormous expenditure during a period of supposed austerity.


The last time a Canadian government seriously considered nuclear subs was in the late 1980s before then prime minister Brian Mulroney sank the whole program amid a public uproar.


A decade later, the Chrétien government bought the four used diesel subs from the British navy in large part because it was seen as such a huge bargain.


Senator Art Eggleton, who was Liberal defence minister at the time, told CBC News Thursday that his government gave "absolutely no consideration" to buying nuclear submarines, although some inside the navy were pushing for them.


"We were coming out of a period of budget-cutting and nuclear submarines would have been far too expensive."


Instead, the British navy was offering a deal Eggleton said the Canadian military couldn’t refuse — the four diesel-electric submarines mothballed after only two years in service when the Royal Navy switched to nuclear subs.


"We got them at a quarter of the cost it would have cost to build new ones," Eggleton says. "We wouldn’t have had the money to build new ones."


He concedes the Liberal government gave serious consideration to not having submarines at all.


"It was either buy these subs, or get out of the submarine business altogether."


'It makes no difference to our security'


Some defence critics think that’s exactly what the current Conservative government should be considering — scrapping the problem-plagued diesel-electric fleet rather than throwing what they see as good money after bad.


“When you look at the cost of trying to get these things seaworthy again, it just doesn’t make sense," said Steven Staples, president of the Rideau Institute on defence issues.


The Harper government has just awarded a $25-billion contract to build a new fleet of Canadian destroyers and frigates, and Staples says that should be enough.


“Once you are in a hole, the first thing that you should do is stop digging, so I think that it is time to say goodbye to the submarines right now and focus on the new surface fleet.”


Staples says the history of the diesel subs suggests Canada could get by without them.


"The fact that all four submarines are sitting tied up at a dry dock right now doesn’t mean that Canada is in any great danger. It makes no difference to our security.”


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CBC News has learned the Harper government is considering buying nuclear submarines to replace its problem-plagued fleet of diesel-powered subs, all of which are currently awash in red in...
CBC News has learned the Harper government is considering buying nuclear submarines to replace its problem-plagued fleet of diesel-powered subs, all of which are currently awash in red in...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Whistlejackett
Hey stop doing that
06:55 PM on 10/29/2011
We don't need nuclear subs because the US has been given sovereignty over Canada's Arctic. The new destroyers and frigates are for Southern waters.
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SiameseTrainer
...we are Sia..mese if you don't please..
02:14 PM on 10/28/2011
I guess our beloved cons think that no one actually watches the programs on CBC about global warming. I guess these free spending Cons think that Canadians are so afraid of someone stealing the arctic that they will support any quixotic venture to protect it, no matter how expensive or pointless. There is no point to having nuclear submarines to "protect" Canadian interests in the arctic, they don't. Under arctic ice a nuclear submarine is not a weapons system, it is only a means of getting you out from under the ice while still breathing.

Canadians please, look at what these klowns are wasting our money on. Prisons to lock up mariwana users for long periods of time...even changing sentencing laws to make sure that the sentence far exceeds the crime, billion dollar aircraft without engines that will be useless in the arctic because their communications systems will not work, and now they are dreaming about mega billion dollar submarines to take people from the atlantic arctic to the pacific arctic under an ice pack which is shrinking every year. What is sustaining the myth that these radicals are fiscally prudent?
01:28 PM on 10/28/2011
What a total waste of money for a peace keeping country!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
anugs
01:15 PM on 10/28/2011
The Harper government just leased a contract to rebuild the surface fleet ($33 billion), has a proposal for the F-35 (minus engines???? $9 Billion) and now they want Nuke subs at $3 Billion as pop. Jesus H Christ what is wrong with this Government. How about spending billions on health care, education, and job creation. We're following the Americans right down the toilet. Get a Grip.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
KNW
01:27 PM on 10/28/2011
I think that's part of the plan. He's going to bankrupt us with useless junk and then cry poverty as an excuse to cut programs.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jjkmack
02:42 PM on 10/28/2011
Yes, that's been the modus operandi of the cons in the states, and from all indications the Harper government is aping the tactics of the US rightwing on how to manipulate elections and transfer wealth to the top 1% of people and corporations.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Martin Houde
I am no microbe
01:04 PM on 10/28/2011
The diesel subs were junk. Let's thank the Brits for that crap.

But going nuke is madness. Much too expensive.

What are Canadian subs for anyway ? Except for going under ice (for which you need nuke) to patrol, it's not really in the Canadian Navy's mandate to have fighting submarines. It's mandate is in overt surveillance. In any case, a hypothetical war involving submarine warfare would have been too advanced for the old subs to begin with. Let's buy frigates instead. Which the government is doing already.

Junk the old subs. Don't buy any more. Waste of money.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Transitteer
and another thing . . .
12:51 PM on 10/28/2011
Junk the Subs, and buy some good well built German subs to replace them until a long term plan is decided on as to whether we should (or could) go nuclear. For submarines to work under the ice, there really is no alternative to nuclear submarines though. If you're going to re:build the Armed Forces, it won't be cheap in any case. Make a good long-term choice this time.
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CanuckistanCommie
I ain't no Commie but Pat Buchanan thinks so!
12:34 PM on 10/28/2011
Aaaaaahhhhh!!! More deficit spending. Brings a tear to George W Bush's eye every time he visits.
Who needs viagra when he has Harper giving him a chub!!!
Yes Stevo!!! Spend more money on instruments of death. Let's not spend it on instruments to save lives!!!
Still hate Iggy people??
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gwinegarden
She's an Arctic Wolf
12:12 PM on 10/28/2011
The feds are saving money on all of those unneeded things like bio-tech research (cut 80%), so they can now spend money on "necessities".

Yes, that was sarcasm.
thephuqqer
not the chicken plucker.
11:50 AM on 10/28/2011
I'm sure if he cut a bit more into healthcare, eliminated E.I., and stopped all transfer payments to the provinces and territories.................except the Tory provinces of course,.....................we could quite easily afford these unnecessary submarines..................................
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gwinegarden
She's an Arctic Wolf
12:08 PM on 10/28/2011
I'm sure that they have already figured this out.
11:40 AM on 10/28/2011
You have to love neo-con governments. No money to spend they say, except for billions and billions and billions on WMD's. Harper warned Canadians he planned to cut every social program and made Canada a haven for the military industrial complex. Welcome Canada to the New World Order.
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uneeda
Make Peace in Our Time
11:37 AM on 10/28/2011
with all the problems with recent and prospective military purchases,one would think that our august leader would stay away from further ridicule
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Jake Thomas
elastic
11:28 AM on 10/28/2011
Nuclear subs? Jet fighters? More troops? Bigger jails?
It sounds like a Grecian Holiday all that spending.
Terrible waste.
Where does this leave taxpayers.
Is this actually being considered.
This is ridiculous, I miss the Red Tories. "Say it ain't so Joe,
Say it ain't so"
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Jason Bullock
11:27 AM on 10/28/2011
I only have one question: What's the point?
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john frodo
armchair expert
11:16 AM on 10/28/2011
Stop the madness, every day Harper is spending another billion on wasted military buildup
11:07 AM on 10/28/2011
1. What, exactly, is wrong (today) with the diesel/electric submarines that may require another one billion dollars to fix? We have already spent the one billion dollars; one will be completed next year, two of the others to be completed soon after.
2. Today, global warming permits all-year-round shipping of the North-West Passage, in ten years (When nuclear submarines could be delivered and operational) it would be even less hazardous and, therefore, quite acceptable for the present diesel/electric types.
3. Tactically, if we wanted to secretly transfer our naval power from the Atlantic to the Pacific, it would be impossible with the latest surveillance systems.
4. Do not forget the assumed billions to be spent on ineffective F-35 fighter jets.
5. Does Greece have a navy??
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SiameseTrainer
...we are Sia..mese if you don't please..
01:53 PM on 10/28/2011
Brilliant, BC, my thoughts exactly! Cons with the keys to the candy store, look at the karap that they spend money on.