Should Canadian Millionaires Pay More Taxes?

Rich Tax Canada

First Posted: 12/21/11 05:57 AM ET Updated: 12/22/11 07:29 AM ET


Tim Hortons co-founder Ron Joyce, listed among the wealthiest of Canadians, says he wouldn't favour a so-called "Buffett tax" on the very rich, believing he already gives enough money to the government.


"I don't think it's fair that they should pick on a segment of our population that is one of the heavier taxpayers," Joyce told CBC News.


"I know I pay a lot of taxes. You know, I started with nothing and I've paid my fair share," said Joyce, who, according to Canadian Business magazine, has an estimated net worth of $1.15 billion and ranks 55th on its list of richest Canadians.


The idea to impose higher taxes on the very rich gained steam a few months ago when American billionaire investor Warren Buffett wrote a piece in the New York Times, complaining that his "mega-rich" friends had been coddled for too long and needed to pay more taxes.


U.S. President Barack Obama also took up the call, proposing a so-called "Buffett Rule." While vague, the plan would mean that no household making more than $1 million annually should pay a smaller share of its income in taxes than middle-class families pay. Democrats, however, recently backed away from their demand for higher taxes on millionaires.


In Canada, the idea seems to be gaining a little traction. NDP leadership candidate Brian Topp recently told The Canadian Press he wants his party to make higher income taxes for high-income earners a key plank in its next election campaign platform.


Topp's proposals include taxing individual incomes of more than $250,000 at 35 per cent, a six per cent hike on the current rate.


"More and more income and wealth has been concentrated in the hands of the wealthiest Canadians," Topp said. "Most middle and working families have not enjoyed a real increase in their income in many years. Income inequality is now as bad as it was in the late 1920s."


Already paying 'a significant amount'


Some, like Joyce, however, argue that the very rich already pay their fair share.


"At the year end, I end up paying a significant amount of money," Joyce said. "I think the richest guy in the world is speaking for himself and God bless him, if he wants to give more, then why doesn't he do it?"


Canadian billionaire Seymour Schulich, an investor and noted philanthropist, told CBC News that he also doesn't agree with a higher tax and believes the wealthiest Canadians are already taxed more than their American counterparts at the upper brackets.


While the federal tax for the highest bracket is actually higher in the U.S., provincial taxes are often higher than U.S. state taxes.


"There's two ways to go to balance the budget. One is to get more revenue and the other is to cut your expenses. You're not going to get that much taxing the rich people," said Schulich, who is estimated to have a net worth of $1.75 billion and ranks 31st on the list of richest Canadians.


"If you get too crazy — I'm not going to move at my age … but the younger guys can move. You're going to lose a lot of good people. You get what happened in Europe. You get all your rich people who are migrating. Meanwhile, rich people are generating most of the jobs."


Buffett's column generated some backlash, particularly from those who pointed to statistics suggesting that very rich Americans actually pay a higher share of federal income tax.


Figures by the non-partisan Washington, D.C.-based Tax Policy Center seemed to back that up. The centre said that the top one per cent of income earners — those making more than $500,000 a year — pay about one-third of all federal income taxes but only have one-sixth of the total income.


Higher proportion of earned income


The top one-10th of one per cent, meaning those who are earning more than $2.1 million, pay 17 per cent of all federal income tax but only have seven per cent of the total income.


According to 2009 figures from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the wealthiest Canadians are also paying a higher proportion of earned income.


For example, Canadians earning more than $250,000, or roughly the top 0.7 per cent of income earners, received nearly 10 per cent of all dollars but paid almost 20 per cent of all income taxes.


Those in the $150,000-to-$250,000 group, about 1.4 per cent of the population, earned around 6.2 per cent of total income but paid more than 12 per cent of taxes.


However, those in the lowest income brackets, representing a little more than half of all Canadian tax filers, earned almost 18 per cent of all income but paid four per cent of all taxes.


"Guys like Brian Topp don't know how much [the wealthy] pay in taxes already. It's an easy target," said Scott Hennig, Alberta director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.


But Armine Yalnizyan, a senior economist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, says wealthier Canadians should be taxed more, noting that according to data, Canadian millionaires are paying tax rates equivalent to those in the 1920s.


"We have room for the rich to be taxed a little bit more," she said, adding that there are 17,000 millionaires in Canada.


'A BuffettTax for Canada?'


In a recent column for Canadian Business titled "A Buffett Tax for Canada?," Yalnizyan argued that a new 32 per cent tax bracket for incomes of more than $250,000, an increase of three per cent on the current top rate, would raise $2 billion.


That same three per cent increase on Canadians in the lowest tax bracket would only generate $154 million, she wrote.


And a 35 per cent tax bracket for Canadians whose income is higher than $750,000 would yield $1.2 billion, she wrote.


"You wouldn’t get a huge amount by taxing them at a higher rate but you'd get something," said Yalnizyan.


"All of that can help reduce the deficit, repair infrastructure, clean water, building new roads, health and education."


Yalnizyan rejected the notion that raising taxes on the very wealthy is akin to punishing the rich.


"And who should be punished? This is not a punishment. This is a contribution to keeping the economy going."


PRODUCTS AND SERVICES FOR THE SUPER RICH
Underwater Hotels
1  of  12
PLAY
FULLSCREEN
ZOOM
SHARE THIS SLIDE 
The world's first undersea hotel, the Jules Undersea Lodge in Florida, opened in the 1970s, but the explosion of wealth in Asia and the Middle East has prompted plans for the construction of a stunning new generation of hotels with sub-surface vistas. Among these are the Poseidon Undersea Resort (pictured above), which opened in Fiji in 2010 and bills itself as aimed at "a select group of the world's adventure travelers." The bill will run you a cool $30,000 per couple per week.
FOLLOW HUFFPOST CANADA POLITICS

Filed by Michael Bolen  | 
 
 
  • Comments
  • 498
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Next ›  Last »  (5 total)
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
01:29 PM on 12/23/2011
The GST was a major shift of federal tax from corporations ( the old Federal Sales Tax ) to the consumer .
I used to accrue 48% Federal and Provincial combined when I worked as an accountant back in the seventies , today I would accrue about 25% , almost half.

Back in the sixties US rates were in the 90% range for millionaires.

In the prosperous era during the Cretien government I was accruing about 38% , which seemed to be the right balance for balancing the budget without discouraging investment , and is comparable with U.S.rates . We need to get back to these rates
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
YankinCanada
Two opposing idealogues walk into a liberal bar...
09:29 PM on 12/22/2011
This argument is framed such that it is the rich vs the poor. Let's talk about the real tax crime: corporate tax. Let the rich be taxed as fairly as anyone, same goes for the corporations. With the tax rate being reduced to 15%, they will pay 0% with the write offs.

Forget the argument as it is framed here. Tax Corporations at 22% and Canada will have every progressive idea paid for, as it should be.

Now you know why the Cons are reducing it.
11:06 AM on 12/22/2011
Most of us do not want the rich taxed into extinction but they are not paying their share of taxes on the money that they have after meeting their basic needs. They talk about the % but they do not talk about all of the deductions that they can take. The government is too generous in the amount of deductions that they can use for transport, accomodations, food and drink etc. Nobody is talking about 75 to 100% taxes . If you talk about an average person and take away what they need for the basic right tto live and their taxes on the what is left is probably 75% . Eg if you earn $30000 but need 25000 just to live and you pay 4000 in taxes you are paying 80% taxes on what you earn over the basic needs(the 5000 above the 25000).
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
kenl77
11:01 AM on 12/22/2011
In Dicken's 'A Christmas Carol', Marley's Ghost says:

'Business!' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. 'Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!'

To many, this is sentimental nonsense.
Indeed, I can hear the but . . . but . . . buts now.

The nay-sayers are wrong, morally wrong in every detail.
12:21 AM on 12/22/2011
One problem with taking from the rich, is that after a few years rich is earning $20K a year. It is much easier to take than to earn.

Remember. Government isnt the solution, its the problem.
08:42 AM on 12/22/2011
Or the rich move out and take their jobs with them
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
kenl77
02:23 PM on 12/22/2011
You may not have noticed but they have already done exactly that.
12:18 AM on 12/22/2011
People with wealth will move, why do you think most movie stars talk about higher taxes but have a home outside of California. in states with no wage tax? 10% state tax on income.. Talk is cheap..
12:16 AM on 12/22/2011
The wealthy already pay a lot, I take virtually no services and will pay $40K in taxes just because I needed to take money out of my RSP. Everyone should have to pay taxes or do community service IMO, people dont appreciate things that are free.
08:43 AM on 12/22/2011
Both welfare and EI should have to perform community service to get their handouts - bet we'd see a lot more get a job!
12:13 AM on 12/22/2011
Most of the millionaires are professional athletes, if you tax them more they will play in the states.

Politicians get gold plated million$ pensions plus do not pay taxes on much of their salary.

The president of TD gets paid less than the top athletes, with a staff of 50,000+ I think its justified.
06:26 PM on 12/21/2011
In the past the wealthy paid very high taxes . It would limit their greed , after all why make more if it's just going towards taxes . This would open doors for others and increase competition . increase the number of companies and therefore the number of employees required to make the companies work . If we continue to decrease taxes , large companies will get larger, smaller ones will disappear , less employment required because less companies , less competition therefore less choice . Corporate welfare needs to end .
06:33 PM on 12/21/2011
And you know this because........?
07:23 PM on 12/21/2011
Which would you like to dispute ?
The wealthy paid higher taxes in the past ?
There were more open doors for others in the past ?
There was more competion in the past ?
There was more companies in the past ?
There were more employee's in the past ?
Large companies are getting larger ?
Small companies are disappearing ?
There is less choice now ?
Or Corporate welfare needs to end ?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TwoZeroOZ
07:51 PM on 12/21/2011
I agree that the more progressive a tax system, the better.

But I disagree that more taxes leads to less incentive to make money. After all, taxes are percentage based. If I can make an extra million and 25% of that is going to go to taxes, I'm still going to be making an extra $750,000 - it's never going to be a negative number.
08:14 PM on 12/21/2011
But if you paid 25 percent on the first million, 50 percent on the second, 75 percent on the third and 100 percent on the 4th . Would you go on vacation after the third million.
06:12 PM on 12/21/2011
Instead of raising taxes, how about:

a.Eliminating loopholes for the very rich
b.Setting limits on how much more employers can make than their employees.
06:18 PM on 12/21/2011
SO NOW YOU WANT MORE GOVT REGULATIONS ON BUSINESS? And there are no tax loopholes in Canada.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TwoZeroOZ
07:52 PM on 12/21/2011
You have a really bad accountant. Get a new one.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
AKQueenie
No such thing as coincidence, just synchronicity.
05:04 PM on 12/21/2011
I just watch "Capitalism: A Love Story" By Micheal Moore. My facts might not be right from a movie, but he said something along the lines that in the '50s or '60s the top 1% paid 90% of taxes from their income. Anybody watch it? Did I get that right? Or should I watch it again? Does that even make sense?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Steve Lives
The Venus Project ... look it up
05:28 PM on 12/21/2011
That is correct. In the golden age of our society, it was so.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
AKQueenie
No such thing as coincidence, just synchronicity.
06:58 PM on 12/21/2011
So, could you say that the Government(s) tried to fix something that wasn't broken? Or is it possible that that system was flawed? If so, is it fixed now? And if not, could we go back to a single income per family life style?
06:20 PM on 12/21/2011
LOL - anything Moore says is highly suspect - he who says the Cuban medical care is the best in the world! LOL What a lefty fruitcake!
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
walkerhds
08:32 PM on 12/21/2011
having read Moore's books, he recognized the problem in the system a lot sooner than most. If anyone's math is suspect, it's yours Conserv.
04:54 PM on 12/21/2011
I commented on this article supporting the argument that greater taxes for the richest Canadians might be a feel good moment but it would do no good and would in fact do a lot of harm, sort of like slashing the tires on a Bentley. I have taken some heat in the HP comments so let me put a simple fact to the argument:

The richest 20 Canadians have a combined net worth of about $100 billion. The national debt of Canada is over $500 TRILLION which means that we could literally tax the 20 richest Canadians out of existence, throw them and their families in the street, and not reduce the national debt by 2 TENTHS of a percent. The "tax the rich" mantra is a red herring.
05:01 PM on 12/21/2011
Making 75k means a Canadian pays 36.5% in taxes, The rich should easily be able to afford to pay the same as me?
06:20 PM on 12/21/2011
They pay more.
05:12 PM on 12/21/2011
The national Debt is not $500,000,000,000,000.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
lulex
Made in Canada
03:40 PM on 12/21/2011
During my family's low income days we couldn't afford to invest in tax shelters like RRSP's. Perhaps we need to think more about ways to reach out to lower income folks to make programs like this more accessible.
Personally, for the extra funding I propose stopping subsidies to big oil and redirecting funds towards green energy options. It creates jobs while establshing resilient economic and energy systems and the start up pays itself off in a matter of years while providing us with free renewable energy. It would help protect water and air quality while reducing healthcare costs.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
CanadaStan
Cogito ergo spud, I think, therefore I yam
04:00 PM on 12/21/2011
What subsidies to big oil?
photo
Jay from Ottawa
sovereignty sale, 1.3T OBO
04:30 PM on 12/21/2011
Numbers range from 1 billion to 2 billion annually depending on the source.

Supposedly the amount is bigger than Environment Canada's entire budget, but I haven't researched that first hand so I can't vouche for it's accuracy.
05:02 PM on 12/21/2011
tax breaks, taxes of 12%? why do I have to pay 26 to 36 % in taxes while the big oil companies pay 12?
06:26 PM on 12/21/2011
There are no subsidies for big oil - they get the same tax treatment as all other corporations.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TwoZeroOZ
07:59 PM on 12/21/2011
LOL What? Who on earth told you this???

All stages of oil development receives many forms of subsidies from the government. Of course you've probably never even heard the term 'Accelerated Capital Cost Allowance' before, so I doubt you would have any knowledge on the subject...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
walkerhds
08:36 PM on 12/21/2011
proof please?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Steve Lives
The Venus Project ... look it up
03:14 PM on 12/21/2011
I don't know enough to comment on how much the wealthy should pay, or even what they pay now. But I do know that countries that have a more equitable society, fares better in every way. From innovation, public health, and happiness to lower crime rates, lower teen pregnancy, less drug abuse, and longer life spans. This affects the wealthy the same as the poor.
I personally think we should move to a Resource Based Economy and do away with the need for money. After all, its all make believe anyway.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
CanadaStan
Cogito ergo spud, I think, therefore I yam
04:01 PM on 12/21/2011
Really?
Name the top three most equitable societies.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Steve Lives
The Venus Project ... look it up
04:22 PM on 12/21/2011
Finland, Sweden and believe it or not, Rwanda. Based on 2007 statistics. Rwanda has come a long way from the 1994 genocide.
photo
Jay from Ottawa
sovereignty sale, 1.3T OBO
04:35 PM on 12/21/2011
Japan, Denmark, Sweden, Slovakia, Norway.

Canada is ranked 23rd, the USA is in 78th place. Granted between the top five and Canada / USA you'll find quite a few countries where everyone is evenly poor.
02:34 PM on 12/21/2011
Does anyone really care what this guy says. Perfect example of someone with too much money.
Inheritance rules should not allow the passing on of this fortune to another lucky sperm.
02:34 PM on 12/21/2011
The govt takes 50%
02:42 PM on 12/21/2011
how about the govt take it all and make every generation earn their own? Don't see why someone who was born into money should have a free ride? I'm tired of these lazy hippy rich, who don't work, don't pay taxes, and whine when asked to contribute.

Maybe it's time to gt rid of inheritances. I would love to hear the response if everyone had to start with the same advantage.
02:46 PM on 12/21/2011
50% of what - that's one of the main issues. The wealthy hire there friendly tax accountants/lawyers @ $500 per hour to hide income, invent expenses etc.