Gun Ledgers 'Unauthorized,' Toews Tells RCMP

CBC  |  Posted: 05/08/2012 7:19 pm Updated: 05/10/2012 6:38 pm


Public Safety Minister Vic Toews is lashing out at provincial officials who he says are collecting unauthorized information on long-gun buyers, threatening to use legislation to make them stop.


In a letter to RCMP Commissioner Robert Paulson that was copied to all provincial chief firearms officers, Toews said the firearms officers "are attempting to collect point of sale data that they are no longer authorized to collect pursuant to Bill C-19 [the bill to end the long-gun registry]."


"To be clear, the Firearms Act neither authorizes this activity, nor any other measures that could facilitate the creation of a provincial long-gun registry," Toews wrote in the letter.


Firearms groups have been complaining Ontario gun vendors are still collecting personal information about legal purchases in ledgers, calling the books a way to create a "back-door" registry.


Ontario Provincial Police Supt. Chris Wyatt, the province's chief firearms officer, said last week the ledgers aren't new.


"Ledgers existed for decades before the long-gun registry," Wyatt told host Evan Solomon on CBC's Power & Politics Thursday. "It's in the interests of public safety to ensure that firearms aren't being sold to criminals or persons who are prohibited from having firearms."


The ledgers list the make, model and serial number of the gun sold, as well as the name and firearms licence number of the purchaser.


There was also a column in the ledgers to record the registration certificate number from the federal firearms registry, but this information will no longer exist with the end of the registry.


The CFOs have argued federal law requiring firearms vendors to record the information did not change with the passage of the Harper government's legislation to abolish the federal long-gun registry last month, but Toews' letter casts doubt on that argument.


Toews warns RCMP not to help with collection


Toews warned the RCMP and the Canadian Firearms Program not to help the provinces collect information from gun owners, unless it's "expressly required" by provincial law.


"The position of the federal government, as dictated by the will of Canadians, is that registration of long guns is wasteful and ineffective," he said.


"If it comes to your attention that CFOs are interpreting the Firearms Act as a basis for unauthorized data collection, please advise me immediately. I am prepared to consider all legislative and regulatory measures necessary to give effect to the will of Canadians."


C-19 became law last month. The new law requires the RCMP to delete all the data in the registry, and requires each provincial firearms office to destroy records under its control, which the province of Quebec is fighting in court so it can keep the records on Quebecers.


Wyatt says that, based on legal advice his office has received, he will be destroying only the records of the registration certificate.


Related on HuffPost:

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  • What does this new bill on the gun registry do?

    We keep hearing about scrapping the long-gun registry, but really what we're talking about is scrapping the requirement for people to register their rifles and shotguns - that's what Bill C-19 aims to do by making amendments to the Criminal Code and Firearms Act. Once passed, people will not have to register their non-restricted or non-prohibited firearms. It also provides for the destruction of existing records in the Canadian Firearms Registry for those firearms. <em>With files from CBC</em>

  • What exactly is the registry?

    It's a centralized database overseen by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that links firearms with their licensed owners. It contains information about all three types of guns that must be registered - non-restricted, restricted and prohibited. (All firearms must be registered.) To register a firearm, you have to have a licence to possess it.

  • Does the bill make any changes to licensing requirements?

    No. Canadian residents need a licence in order to possess and register a firearm or ammunition and that won't change. There are a couple of different kinds of licences because of various changes to laws and regulations over the years.

  • What are long guns?

    There are three types of guns under Canadian law: non-restricted, restricted and prohibited. Most common long guns - rifles and shotguns - are non-restricted but there are a few exceptions. A sawed-off shotgun, for example, is a prohibited firearm. A handgun is an example of a restricted firearm. Different regulations apply to different classifications of firearms.

  • How many guns are we talking about?

    As of September 2011, there were about 7.8 million registered guns. Of those, 7.1 million are non-restricted firearms.

  • Why does the government want to get rid of the long-gun registry?

    The government says it is wasteful and ineffective at reducing crime and targets law-abiding gun owners instead of criminals, who don't register their firearms.

  • Who wants to keep it?

    Police and victims' groups are big supporters of the registry. Police say the database helps them evaluate a potential safety threat when they pull a vehicle over or are called to a residence. They also say it helps support police investigations because the registry can help determine if a gun was stolen, illegally imported, acquired or manufactured. This year, the RCMP says police agencies accessed it on average more than 17,000 times a day.

  • When will the registry cease to exist?

    The government has passed the legislation and the registry no longer exists. Except for in Quebec, where an ongoing court challenge means the owners must still register their guns in the province.

  • Why does the government want to destroy the records?

    The government is doing this to ensure that no future non-Conservative government can recreate the registry. Public Safety Minister Vic Toews has also made it clear that if any province wants to set up its own registry it would get no help from the federal government. The Conservatives are so fundamentally opposed to the existence of the records, because they say they focus on law-abiding citizens instead of criminals, that they don't want them available for anyone to use.

  • How much does the registry cost?

    The registry cost more than $1 billion to set up in 1995 and the cost was the source of much controversy. Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said on Oct. 25 that the government's best estimate is that it costs about $22 million a year to operate. That's the entire registry, not just the long-gun portion, but he noted most of the guns in the registry are long guns. He said he didn't know how much money scrapping the requirement to register long guns would save the government. Conservative MP Candice Hoeppner says there are also "hidden costs" that are borne by provincial and municipal police agencies to enforce the registry.

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Public Safety Minister Vic Toews is lashing out at provincial officials who he says are collecting unauthorized information on long-gun buyers, threatening to use legislation to make them...
Public Safety Minister Vic Toews is lashing out at provincial officials who he says are collecting unauthorized information on long-gun buyers, threatening to use legislation to make them...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
14Kestrel
11:33 AM on 05/10/2012
I still don't get it. I bought a motorcycle. I was required to register all serial numbers, insurance certificates, and sales documents. I can't even shoot anyone with my little Honda. What possible argument can be made against gun registration. The logical disconnect here is mind boggling.
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BCPATRIOT
British Columbia
07:56 PM on 05/13/2012
What does a little Honda have to do with firearms.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
14Kestrel
09:29 AM on 05/15/2012
That's right, pretend you don't understand my analogy. The only other answer, is that you really don't understand, in which case you are exactly the kind of sub-100 IQ fool whose hands should never touch a gun.
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albertarick
These are questions for wise men with skinny arms
11:10 AM on 05/10/2012
Last year, if I sold one of my guns in a private sale, I was obligated to inform the registry of the sale and the responsibility of firearm ownership changed hands under the supervision of the gun registry. I couldn't end my responsibility for the use of the firearm unless the registration was transfered. With no registry I can now sell guns to anyone privately and do not have to report the sale to anyone. There is no enforceable obligation on my part to check if the buyer has a PAL because as far as the authorities know I never had the gun in the first place. Great idea.
04:01 PM on 05/09/2012
I don't need the police to know that I own a shotgun for trap shooting at the local gun-club so that they can overreact if they pull me over for an improper lane change or something. Honestly, how on earth can the registry help the police when Canada has such a high rate of gun ownership? Give me a break. I LOATHE the Harper government on every issue except this one. Their environmental record is non-existent, their desire to usurp our freedoms, their antics in parliament, etc. are ridiculous. That being said, who gives a shit if I own a rifle or not? Seriously?
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06:52 PM on 05/09/2012
So YOUR worried about THEM over-reacting? interesting ideology.

you see THE'RE worried about YOU over-reacting.

and I'D prefer that WHEN people over-react they don't have any GUNS!
02:42 PM on 05/09/2012
Remember the Alberta RCMP officer shot dead by a long gun owner?
Vic Towes should get full credit for any future RCMP officer shot dead by an unregistered gun.

here: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CTVNewsAt11/20050304/shooting_alberta_050303/

and here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/02/07/edmonton-rcmp-officers-shot-killam.html
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Another Pesky Canadian
Talk - action = 0
02:39 PM on 05/09/2012
"I am prepared to consider all legislative and regulatory measures necessary to give effect to the will of Canadians." - Vic Toews

I am so pleased to hear this! Does this mean you will be undoing all the harmful things the Harper Government has done since it won (possibly fraudulently) a majority with a minority percentage of Canadians' votes?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
murphyj87
02:25 PM on 05/09/2012
Toews doesn't care that most Canadians in urban areas, where most live, want the long gun registry. As soon as the long gun registry was abolished, people walked up and down the street in this city and shot the windows out of cars with rifles, and, had kids not dived for cover, kids may well have been shot and some would likely be killed.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
tooldude
05:02 PM on 05/09/2012
What city are you in, and why was that never on the news?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
stanschurman
01:39 PM on 05/09/2012
Toews is in a perpetual state of lashing out.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
contest d
12:14 PM on 05/09/2012
Okay, so, minimal data on gun owners, maximum data (surreptitiously collected) on internet users. I hope, for the sake of Vic Towes mental health, it's not discovered that gun owners significantly contribute to online child pornography.
This comment has been removed due to violations of our [Guidelines]
11:48 AM on 05/09/2012
One thing to remember is the comment the CFO of Ontario made - C19 abolished registration of long guns, but not the requirement to record and track sales by gunsmiths/vendors.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
tooldude
12:44 PM on 05/09/2012
That records one transaction. 15 minutes after leaving the sports store, that gun can be sold to anyone holding a valid PAL certificate. That transaction does not have to be recorded anywhere.
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albertarick
These are questions for wise men with skinny arms
12:55 PM on 05/09/2012
It did before the gun registry was dissolved.
01:32 PM on 05/09/2012
Absolutely on the same page with you. However, collecting the sales info (as required by law) is not an unauthorized collection of data.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
colpy
05:26 PM on 05/09/2012
Which is COMPLETELY incorrect.

There is NO requirement in law for vendors to keep records.
08:14 PM on 05/09/2012
Well, I'll put my trust in the chief firearms officer for Ontario to interpret the legal requirements before I put my trust in Vic Toews.
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11:46 AM on 05/09/2012
So let me get this straight, we DID have some data on guns before the LGR, but now we don't need anything? You should just be able to go buy a gun show your FAC and thats enough, no one needs to know you bought it, and no one should be able to trace it back to the purchaser?

Why would any potential law abiding gun owner have an issue with the weapon being traceable?
We should have more documentation for automobiles than firearms?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
piceaglauca
The picture says it all....
11:43 AM on 05/09/2012
It only proves the point that as the Federal Gov't does what it wants irrespective of the law they in turn dictate to the provinces what they do not do themselves which is following the legislation inacted. The provinces always did collect information but I personally don't remember in the 60's or 70's giving up any personal information. I went into the local town co-op and bought what I wanted. I think the clerk said, "have a nice day."
11:35 AM on 05/09/2012
Towes is to Public Safety what Raitt is the Labour and Kent is to environment. He has no riught to tell the province how to run affairs that are within their constitutional powers. One of their old arguements was the guns are property and provinces have authority over property.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
tooldude
12:46 PM on 05/09/2012
He is telling the CFOs, (a federal employee) not to record this info. The provinces can enact their own regulations. Was the article too long for you to read all the way through?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
gravescanada
02:44 PM on 05/09/2012
tooldude, I guess you missed this part of the article.

"To be clear, the Firearms Act neither authorizes this activity, nor any other measures that could facilitate the creation of a provincial long-gun registry," Toews wrote in the letter.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
DirkNeptune
I love raspberry pie, damn it.
10:58 AM on 05/09/2012
Calling Towes the "public safety" minister is a pathetic joke.

"Ambassador to the NRA" would be more appropriate.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
colpy
07:59 PM on 05/09/2012
Ah....the NRA exists ONLY in the United States......... :)
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
DirkNeptune
I love raspberry pie, damn it.
08:32 PM on 05/09/2012
Ah...Canadians can JOIN the NRA and the NRA was INVOLVED in the gun registry issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/09/13/canada-nra-gun-registry.html
10:37 AM on 05/09/2012
Finally Towes is getting some backbone. The Registry and all its data is to be destroyed, some of these CFO's better remember that they are federal employee's or atleast federally appointed in the case of some of the provinces. If we allow all bureaucrat's to interpret laws how they see fit, we are going to have a lot more problems. The legislation was clear, destroy the records completely and the ledger system was done away with back when the liberals enacted the registry. Sorry CFO's can't invent new requirements that are not in the legislation. Come on Toews start firing some of these CFO's and/or stop paying their salaries and for all the others that work in their offices. They are useless.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
piceaglauca
The picture says it all....
11:45 AM on 05/09/2012
I bet you it isn't. With Quebec's challenge this will go to the Supreme Court and I am sure the court will assign jurisdiction to the provinces to use the information as felt fit. Stay tuned.
12:02 PM on 05/09/2012
Well I disagree, this is federally collected information and was collected under federal law which governs the data. If the federal government cannot guarantee that data which you provide to them will not be transferred to others, I think we will have a much larger issue with people wanting to provide information to any federal department.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
gravescanada
02:46 PM on 05/09/2012
We have had our differences, but F&F!
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11:49 AM on 05/09/2012
these requirements are not new, they existed long before the LGR.
11:57 AM on 05/09/2012
As I said the requirement to use the ledger system was done away with during the creation of the registry. The new legislation did not stipulate that the old ledger system was to be reborn again. Bureaucrats cannot decide to resurrect old systems and implement procedures that are not in the legislation.