RCMP Letter Fuels Battle Over Gun Records

CBC  |  Posted: Updated: 05/15/2012 7:38 am


RCMP commissioner Bob Paulson has instructed chief firearms officers to ensure that any conditions they impose on gun store owners do not facilitate the creation of a long-gun registry.


In a letter sent Thursday, Paulson doesn't explicitly tell the CFOs that gun store owners should not keep ledgers that record the names and licence numbers of customers, but he carefully reminds them that Public Safety Minister Vic Toews doesn't want any records kept.


Paulson tells the CFOs that the passage of C-19, the bill that abolished the requirement for unrestricted long guns to be registered, "leaves no doubt that Parliament has sought to eliminate any form of a long-gun registry."


Toews sent a letter to Paulson and the CFOs on May 8 that said the Firearms Act should not be interpreted in such a way that CFOs think they can require licensing conditions that could recreate "some semblance" of a long-gun registry.


Section 58(1) of the Firearms Act gives CFOs the authority to attach conditions to licences, but Paulson says in his letter that when exercising that authority related to records kept by businesses, they must consider the will of Parliament and directions from the minister.


"Accordingly, as the commissioner of firearms, and pursuant to the direction issued by the minister of public safety on May 8, 2012, I instruct all chief firearms officers to ensure that the licensing conditions you impose on business records pursuant to the Firearms Act do not facilitate the creation of long-gun registries in your jurisdictions," Paulson writes.


The letter adds to a boiling debate between some provinces and the federal government, and groups such as the Canadian Shooting Sports Association (CSSA), that has emerged in the wake of the law scrapping the long-gun registry.


Conservative MP Candice Hoeppner, parliamentary secretary to Toews, said in an interview on Power & Politics Friday that she is pleased with Paulson's letter.


"The RCMP commissioner is expecting that CFOs will comply with C-19, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law in terms of ending the long gun registry," she told host Rosemary Barton.


Any person who purchases firearms in Canada must hold a valid firearms licence, a requirement that didn't change with the passage of C-19, and gun vendors for years have maintained ledgers of the weapons they sell. The ledgers list the make, model and serial number of the gun sold, as well as the name and firearms licence number of the purchaser.


Hoeppner said the ledgers amount to "back-door" registries and that government has put an end to the requirement for both businesses and individuals to register long guns. If store owners want to keep a ledger voluntarily, they are free to do so, but neither the government, nor CFOs, can force them, Hoeppner said.


And if a prospective buyer doesn't want to give a store owner their information, they don't have to buy the weapon there, she said.


She said she expects CFOs to listen to Paulson's instructions and comply with his wishes.


The RCMP manages a national database that keeps registration records for restricted and prohibited guns, but the portion dedicated to unrestricted long guns is now being dismantled.


Ontario wants ledgers kept


When C-19 amended the Firearms Act to scrap the long-gun registry, it did not reinstate an old requirement for store ledgers to be kept, but some CFOs have attempted to impose the rule using the authority given to them under the act to carry out their duties, and many store owners support their use.


Ontario's CFO, Ontario Provincial Police Supt. Chris Wyatt, recently wrote a letter to gun vendors outlining their responsibility to collect information about legal gun sales in the ledgers, a practice he says has been followed for decades and that is not affected by the ending of the long-gun registry.


Wyatt says he has received legal advice that Toews can't direct CFOs how to exercise the discretion that is afforded them under Section 58(1) of the act, and that he requires that ledgers be kept as a condition of the gun store owner's business licence.


Hoeppner, however, said CFOs can't use that provision "to try and circumvent the will of Parliament and what an actual act in its entire context reads."


Wyatt responded on Friday that Hoeppner's view is "not accurate."


"I can put reasonable conditions on a business license and ledgers are a reasonable condition," he told CBC News.


He also disagrees that ledgers are back-door registries and noted the Conservatives never called them that before and they've been around for years.


"The long gun registry and the business ledgers have different purposes," said Wyatt. "The business ledgers, the purpose is to prevent unlicencees, criminals and prohibited persons from acquiring firearms."


"Here you have these two separate systems. One is computerized, network, it's got lots of search capability and is accessible instantaneously to police. The ledgers aren't that at all."


Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said Friday his province has no intention of creating a new registry, but it does want stores to keep records of who buys guns, despite federal objections.


McGuinty said stores have been collecting the information since the 1970s and if the federal government wants them to stop, it must be clear about that.


John Evers, president of the East Elgin Sportsmen's Association and a regional director of the CSSA, called the practice illegal in reaction to Wyatt's letter to store owners last week. He said he would lobby the government to stop any practice of collecting personal information about legal gun owners.


A few days later, Toews issued his letter to Paulson and the CFOs. It said the officers "are attempting to collect point of sale data that they are no longer authorized to collect pursuant to Bill C-19."


"To be clear, the Firearms Act neither authorizes this activity, nor any other measures that could facilitate the creation of a provincial long-gun registry," Toews wrote in the letter.


He asked the RCMP to notify him "immediately" if they learn that chief firearms officers are engaged in "unauthorized data collection."


Quebec has mounted a legal challenge preventing the destruction of federal long-gun registry records.


Related on HuffPost:

Loading Slideshow...
  • What does this new bill on the gun registry do?

    We keep hearing about scrapping the long-gun registry, but really what we're talking about is scrapping the requirement for people to register their rifles and shotguns - that's what Bill C-19 aims to do by making amendments to the Criminal Code and Firearms Act. Once passed, people will not have to register their non-restricted or non-prohibited firearms. It also provides for the destruction of existing records in the Canadian Firearms Registry for those firearms. <em>With files from CBC</em>

  • What exactly is the registry?

    It's a centralized database overseen by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that links firearms with their licensed owners. It contains information about all three types of guns that must be registered - non-restricted, restricted and prohibited. (All firearms must be registered.) To register a firearm, you have to have a licence to possess it.

  • Does the bill make any changes to licensing requirements?

    No. Canadian residents need a licence in order to possess and register a firearm or ammunition and that won't change. There are a couple of different kinds of licences because of various changes to laws and regulations over the years.

  • What are long guns?

    There are three types of guns under Canadian law: non-restricted, restricted and prohibited. Most common long guns - rifles and shotguns - are non-restricted but there are a few exceptions. A sawed-off shotgun, for example, is a prohibited firearm. A handgun is an example of a restricted firearm. Different regulations apply to different classifications of firearms.

  • How many guns are we talking about?

    As of September 2011, there were about 7.8 million registered guns. Of those, 7.1 million are non-restricted firearms.

  • Why does the government want to get rid of the long-gun registry?

    The government says it is wasteful and ineffective at reducing crime and targets law-abiding gun owners instead of criminals, who don't register their firearms.

  • Who wants to keep it?

    Police and victims' groups are big supporters of the registry. Police say the database helps them evaluate a potential safety threat when they pull a vehicle over or are called to a residence. They also say it helps support police investigations because the registry can help determine if a gun was stolen, illegally imported, acquired or manufactured. This year, the RCMP says police agencies accessed it on average more than 17,000 times a day.

  • When will the registry cease to exist?

    The government has passed the legislation and the registry no longer exists. Except for in Quebec, where an ongoing court challenge means the owners must still register their guns in the province.

  • Why does the government want to destroy the records?

    The government is doing this to ensure that no future non-Conservative government can recreate the registry. Public Safety Minister Vic Toews has also made it clear that if any province wants to set up its own registry it would get no help from the federal government. The Conservatives are so fundamentally opposed to the existence of the records, because they say they focus on law-abiding citizens instead of criminals, that they don't want them available for anyone to use.

  • How much does the registry cost?

    The registry cost more than $1 billion to set up in 1995 and the cost was the source of much controversy. Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said on Oct. 25 that the government's best estimate is that it costs about $22 million a year to operate. That's the entire registry, not just the long-gun portion, but he noted most of the guns in the registry are long guns. He said he didn't know how much money scrapping the requirement to register long guns would save the government. Conservative MP Candice Hoeppner says there are also "hidden costs" that are borne by provincial and municipal police agencies to enforce the registry.

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RCMP commissioner Bob Paulson has instructed chief firearms officers to ensure that any conditions they impose on gun store owners do not facilitate the creation of a long-gun registry. ...
RCMP commissioner Bob Paulson has instructed chief firearms officers to ensure that any conditions they impose on gun store owners do not facilitate the creation of a long-gun registry. ...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Whistlejackett
Hey stop doing that
09:51 AM on 05/13/2012
To me personally, guns are not nor ever will be an issue. Please go away with your differences, there are many more important issues to be concerned with.
09:53 PM on 05/12/2012
If any province wants to legislate laws to support a registry at point of sale, then there is nothing the feds can do to stop it. However, the continued making noise about it satisfies their base and keeps those 'right to bear arms' people very happy. The CONS just keep the issue rolling along to try and keep their polling numbers up, as there isn't much of anything else they are doing to make any Canadian happy.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
colpy
01:32 AM on 05/13/2012
Absolutely correct in that the provinces can legislate a gun registry.

However, you are missing two very important points:

1. There is NO provincial law as of yet, the CFO works under Federal law, and there is NO specific allowance for information gathering. To act against the wishes of the Feds, that set out the regulations, is to act without legislative approval.......in other words, to make up the law as they go along. God knows I don't want the police deciding what the law is.....

2. Any provincial law will NOT have the force of the Criminal Code behind it. Violations will NOT be a criminal offense. Gun owners will ignore it even more than they gnored the Federal LGR.......which makes any provincial attempt at a registry completely useless.
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MJinCanada
Safe from zombies until my 2nd cup of coffee
01:11 PM on 05/12/2012
Why doesn't the federal government want any registration or record at all of long guns? Why do they want to hamper police in the investigation of possible future murders and robberies? It's absolutely contrary to their "tough on crime" stance -- and makes me wonder if they're encouraging the formation of nutty right-wing militias.
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fromdnorth
OK I checked my micro-bio (didn't know I had one
01:00 AM on 05/12/2012
The NDP should start a list of all the Harperroid laws ans policies they would rescind, re-work, reject and repulse... as a platform...
10:35 AM on 05/12/2012
I have the feeling it will be a long list by the time the Reformers get voted out come next election.
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Gnomish
ego doctus ignarus
06:15 PM on 05/12/2012
Some will be very hard to repair, its easier to destroy a web then it is to make one.

On the other hand it would be a great opportunity to close some loopholes and introduce recall legislation.
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fromdnorth
OK I checked my micro-bio (didn't know I had one
12:56 AM on 05/12/2012
bought and paid for...
yer
Stop the Alberta Taliban
12:45 AM on 05/12/2012
What else to you expect from a Harpergeddon appointee?
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Spanky McFarlane
ILLEGITIMUS NON CARBORUNDUM.
09:57 PM on 05/11/2012
That info is a Crown asset & by their own numbers cost taxpayers billions to compile. It is not for the RCMP to meddle with that data should the Provinces want access to it for what ever reasson IMO.& the new head Cop should not have an opinion one way or the other.
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MJinCanada
Safe from zombies until my 2nd cup of coffee
01:12 PM on 05/12/2012
Exactly. Hunting laws are largely provincial jurisdiction. If someone doesn't want a rifle or shotgun for hunting, what do they want it for?
01:21 PM on 05/12/2012
target shooting? self defense?
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07:22 PM on 05/11/2012
Looks like we could be hankering down for another constitutional battle.
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Spanky McFarlane
ILLEGITIMUS NON CARBORUNDUM.
10:00 PM on 05/11/2012
The Gun divide has always been along rural/ urban lines. If the Government were sincere about servicing the public instead of making political hay they would have explored relegating these laws to provinces so they could perhaps allow municipal rules that would regognise the wishes of those living in respected areas.

our Government sucks.
05:51 PM on 05/11/2012
i have the back end of an 18 wheeler on my acerage ---
the local field mouse momma decided to set up camp inside ------
i was not amused and bought some rat poison ---

i had to SIGN A REGISTER TO MAKE THE PURCHASE
yer
Stop the Alberta Taliban
12:50 AM on 05/12/2012
first of all you bought rat poison to kill a mouse

If your purchase of a hazadous material were not checked you could potentially go off your neighbours too

But thankfully you were registered, because you are a reasonable person. Thus if something happens out of the ordinary the police have a lead on where to start, even if there is a robbery or what not. And society is saved.

You are still able to do what you need to do, but there are safeguards to prevent what needs to be prevented.

That's how a society works. I don't see a problem here
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MJinCanada
Safe from zombies until my 2nd cup of coffee
01:15 PM on 05/12/2012
Well, duh. If therainisgone has to sign for rat poison (which does work on mice, thank you), why shouldn't people have to sign something to buy rifles and shotguns?
yer
Stop the Alberta Taliban
12:51 AM on 05/12/2012
Meanwhile the topic is about guns
07:34 AM on 05/12/2012
dude --as you said you can use rat poison for legal uses nad illegal uses --same as a gun ---one requires registration the other does not ----

sorry the comparison went over your head
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fromdnorth
OK I checked my micro-bio (didn't know I had one
09:47 AM on 05/12/2012
It is a worthwhile parallel...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
dclintn648
Conservatism is dread
05:43 PM on 05/11/2012
I can understand the government not supporting the long gun registry, but to THREATEN the provinces if they wanted to continue it - as if registry is a CRIME!

NEWSFLASH: The registry is not the crime - the unregistered GUNS are the crime!!!

What is it about conservatives that make them think they have a right to be BULLIES and DESPOTS when they are in power???
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fromdnorth
OK I checked my micro-bio (didn't know I had one
09:55 AM on 05/12/2012
Bullying is only the beginning of it now. Oppressing a Province for the safety of its residents is just vindictive and ideological. Losing the existing data and preventing the Provinces from dealing with their own social realities demonstrates a wanton and reckless disregard for the safety priorities of a civilized society.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Denis OBrien
11:26 AM on 05/12/2012
It seems that Paulson has working as Vic's baby sitter as part of his resume.