Jeff Rubin Q&A: What The World Will Look Like After The 'End Of Growth'

Posted: 05/12/2012 12:43 pm Updated: 05/14/2012 1:18 pm

Jeff Rubin has a message for all the economists and central bankers out there, waiting with bated breath for rock-bottom interest rates to kick the world economy into high gear: it’s not going to happen, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

As the straight-shooting former chief economist of CIBC World Markets argues in his new book, The End of Growth, triple-digit oil prices are here to stay -- a reality that will make it impossible for developed economies to return to the glory days of rapid expansion built on cheap credit and affordable fuel.

But as Rubin sees it, that’s not all bad news. Though he predicts permanently tepid growth will push Greece and Portugal into default, he also says it will reverse globalization, stop climate change in its tracks -- and put a limit on oil sands expansion.

It’s a view he concedes might not be very popular among those in the financial industry where he made a name for himself. But he says that’s because they’re still using a playbook that no longer makes sense.

As he told The Huffington Post Canada, “We’re trying to fuel our growth, because we feel that the economy has to grow. But that’s not recognizing that the economy’s speed limit has changed.”

HuffPost: What is the relationship between high oil prices and economic downturns?

Rubin: Oil impacts the economy in a whole lot of ways, almost all of which are not bullish unless you happen to be Fort McMurray. In the short run, the demand for oil is inelastic so when the price of oil goes up, people spend a greater percentage of their budget on energy and they have less to spend on other stuff.

But the real fatal impact of oil on growth has always been the inflationary fallout, because it induces a rise in interest rates that is growth-ending. As I argue, what really pricked the subprime mortgage market was ... the 35 per cent rate of energy inflation in the U.S. [consumer price index], and the U.S. inflation rate going from one percent to five and a half. The Fed had to follow [by raising interest rates], then all of a sudden the subprime market blew up.

That’s always the way that oil has deep-sixed our economies -- the ’73 recession, the ’79 recession [see 1973 oil crisis and 1979 energy crisis]. In ’91, when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and left half its oil fields on fire, all of a sudden inflation spiked to six per cent, the Fed funds rate spiked to six per cent, and boom, we had another recession.

PHOTOS: 10 IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT CANADA'S OIL INDUSTRY

PHOTOS: THE OIL SANDS AND CANADA'S ENVIRONMENT

HuffPost: We’ve been able to recover from the other recessions you say were induced by high oil prices, so why not this one?

Rubin: All other oil-induced recessions were created as a result of an oil shock. Somebody closed the spigot. But then after the shock was over, oil came down to whatever the regular trading range was.

This time the increase in oil prices, which even in real terms was double the OPEC oil shock, wasn’t a shock. Nobody closed the spigot. On the contrary, the world never produced more oil. It was a basic imbalance between demand and supply. Oil prices plunged [during the recession], but the minute the economy started growing, boom: We’re facing those very same triple-digit oil prices.

We are now living in a permanent world of triple-digit oil prices, whereas in the past, those were temporary, transient shocks because somebody arbitrarily cut off supply. Nobody is cutting off supply. We’re getting oil from places we’ve never gotten it before.

But for me, peak oil ain’t what you can drill, it’s what you can afford to burn. Who gives a fuck what you can drill if you can’t afford the price? The oil industry is great at tapping the Bakkens and the tar sands, but if oil is $40 a barrel, then guess what? Nobody is in the Bakkens and nobody is in the tar sands because that stuff don’t flow at $40 a barrel.

So it’s not that we’re ever going to run out of oil in the absolute geological sense, but we’ve probably already run out of the kind of oil that we can afford to burn, because to get to that supply, we need prices that our economies can’t grow at.

HuffPost: What will the end of growth look like in Canada?

Rubin: I don’t think it’s the end of the world. What we’re going to see is probably pensioners continuing to stay in the labour force as they are already starting to do. We’re probably going to see young people staying at home longer and big increases in post-secondary education as double digit youth unemployment rates [persist].

We’ll obviously see a lot less immigration in countries like Canada the U.S. and Europe. We’re going to see a return of the local economy, a resurgence in manufacturing and agriculture. We’re going to see a shrinkage of the financial sector.

In terms of jobs, the German job-sharing program is the kind of thing the government should be focusing on instead of trying to keep interest rates at one per cent. Because in this new world, we may have three or four jobs as opposed to one job. Instead of firing one person, four people get 70 per cent of their income. I think that’s going to make a whole lot of sense in the economy, and maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

[If you lose] a quarter of your income pre-tax, you’ll buy less stuff but maybe you already have enough stuff. I think that we may find a lot of blessings in that. We may find that job sharing actually improves our quality of life.

HuffPost: Losing a quarter of your pre-tax income might not really hurt if you’re at the upper end of the income distribution, but what about those at the bottom?

Rubin: In today’s world, labour has no bargaining power because companies can just arbitrage differences in regulatory regimes and differences in wage rates by moving production to whoever offers you the best deal. But in a world where oil costs $120 a barrel, freight costs matter and all of a sudden it’s not so easy to separate production from markets.

The closer production is tied to markets, the more empowering it is to local governments, the more empowering it is to local suppliers and the more empowering it is to local labour.

We’re going to see the return of a lot of high-paying jobs [like] steelworkers, tool and die workers, chemical workers. Maybe there will be job-sharing at the steel plant but guess what? Two years ago those jobs were in China.

HuffPost: That sounds promising, but we don’t have a huge market in Canada. So if we’re only producing steel and cars for domestic consumption, then how many jobs are we really talking about?

Rubin: What you’re saying is that world markets give us tremendous economies of scale and those economies of scale give you such a cost advantage that that’s where production [is profitable]. That’s certainly the model behind China becoming the factory of the world. But I don’t think these economies of scale are that important in the world that I’m talking about because of transport costs. Those transport costs will eat up those economies of scale and a good chunk of the wage advantage.

HuffPost: We are facing a significant imbalance in Canada, with growth increasingly concentrated in the west. How will the end of growth affect this great divide?

Rubin: The fault lines in our country are going to be over energy -- not east-west, French-English -- it’s going to be between who has energy and who doesn’t.

Already, Ontario, which used to be the banker of equalization, is now a have-not province because it’s the largest oil-consuming province. Newfoundland, a perennial basket-case, is now a have province because of the offshore oil. That’s what oil has already done.

But it’s also creating a situation where Alberta might be able to reduce its corporate and personal income taxes while Ontario has to raise [taxes]. How long would CIBC or Stikeman Elliott be in Toronto if there weren’t Alberta income taxes? Those bank towers could just as easily be in Bow Valley Square or the Encana building. Those are the kinds of tensions that energy is going to create.

HuffPost: But I thought you said that we’re no longer going to be able to afford to pull oil out of the ground in Alberta.

Rubin: I question whether tar sands production will ever get to the levels they’re forecasting, not because it cannot be done in an engineering or geological sense and not because they don’t have a pipeline. But for a supertanker to come across the Pacific and schlep oil that comes from tar sands and has to be pumped over the Rockies and coastal mountains, there’s got to be a lot of economic growth happening to make that circuit make sense.

But just as triple-digit oil prices change the speed limit for Canada, they change the speed limit for China, too. What happens when China is growing at four to five per cent instead of eight to 10 per cent? Will it make economic sense for them to schlep oil across the pacific and have it pumped from the tar sands? Maybe not.

So maybe we won’t see the tar sands producing more than three million barrels a day, and not because any regulator tells them that they can’t. There’s a whole lot of global economic growth that underlies the platform of the tar sands doubling its production.

HuffPost: You say that the environmental implications will be the biggest silver linings of the end of growth. What do you mean by that?

Rubin: We’re going to find that like everything else, even our inexorable path to self-destruction is going to run out of fuel. We don’t need to burn oil or coal that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is forecasting that we’re going to burn in the next 20 or 30 years, not because the oil or coal does not exist as an absolute resource, but it doesn’t exist in bodies where we can extract at reasonable costs.

The notion of China doubling its coal consumption in the next 20 years when it’s already consuming 3.2 trillion tons a year is nonsensical. I’d like to know where those climate change modelers think that China is going to be getting that coal from and at what price.

I once forecast that oil was going to get to $200 a barrel. We can’t even run at $120 a barrel. If you think that emissions and climate change are linked, then that’s a fairly major silver lining.

10 IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT CANADA'S OIL INDUSTRY

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  • 10. Oil And Gas Accounts For 4.8 Per Cent Of GDP

    The oil and gas industries accounted for around $65 billion of economic activity in Canada annually in recent years, or slightly less than 5 per cent of GDP. Source: <a href="http://www.ceri.ca/docs/2010-10-05CERIOilandGasReport.pdf" target="_hplink">Canada Energy Research Institute</a>

  • 9. Oil Exports Have Grown Tenfold Since 1980

    Canada exported some 12,000 cubic metres of oil per day in 1980. By 2010, that number had grown to 112,000 cubic metres daily. Source: <a href="http://membernet.capp.ca/SHB/Sheet.asp?SectionID=9&SheetID=224" target="_hplink">Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers</a>

  • 8. Refining Didn't Grow At All As Exports Boomed

    Canada refined 300,000 cubic metres daily in 1980; in 2010, that number was slightly down, to 291,000, even though exports of oil had grown tenfold in that time. Source: <a href="http://membernet.capp.ca/SHB/Sheet.asp?SectionID=7&SheetID=104" target="_hplink">Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers</a>

  • 7. 97 Per Cent Of Oil Exports Go To The U.S.

    Despite talk by the federal government that it wants to open Asian markets to Canadian oil, the vast majority of exports still go to the United States -- 97 per cent as of 2009. Source: <a href="http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/statistics-facts/energy/895" target="_hplink">Natural Resources Canada</a>

  • 6. Canada Has World's 2nd-Largest Proven Oil Reserves

    Canada's proven reserves of 175 billion barrels of oil -- the vast majority of it trapped in the oil sands -- is the second-largest oil stash in the world, after Saudi Arabia's 267 billion. Source: <a href="http://www.ogj.com/index.html" target="_hplink">Oil & Gas Journal</a>

  • 5. Two-Thirds Of Oil Sands Bitumen Goes To U.S.

    One-third of Canada's oil sands bitumen stays in the country, and is refined into gasoline, heating oil and diesel. Source: <a href="http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/statistics-facts/energy/895" target="_hplink">Natural Resources Canada</a>

  • 4. Alberta Is Two-Thirds Of The Industry

    Despite its reputation as the undisputed centre of Canada's oil industry, Alberta accounts for only two-thirds of energy production. British Columbia and Saskatchewan are the second and third-largest producers. Source: <a href="http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/statistics-facts/energy/895" target="_hplink">Natural Resources Canada</a>

  • 3. Alberta Will Reap $1.2 Trillion From Oil Sands

    Alberta' government <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/27/alberta-oil-sands-royalties-ceri_n_1382640.html" target="_hplink">will reap $1.2 trillion in royalties from the oil sands over the next 35 years</a>, according to the Canadian Energy Research Institute.

  • 2. Canadian Oil Consumption Has Stayed Flat

    Thanks to improvements in energy efficiency, and a weakening of the country's manufacturing base, oil consumption in Canada has had virtually no net change in 30 years. Consumption went from 287,000 cubic metres daily in 1980 to 260,000 cubic metres daily in 2010. Source: Source: <a href="http://membernet.capp.ca/SHB/Sheet.asp?SectionID=6&SheetID=99" target="_hplink">Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers</a>

  • 1. 250,000 Jobs.. Plus Many More?

    The National Energy Board says oil and gas employs 257,000 people in Canada, not including gas station employees. And the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers says the oil sands alone <a href="http://www.capp.ca/aboutUs/mediaCentre/NewsReleases/Pages/OilsandsaCanadianjobcreator.aspx" target="_hplink">will grow from 75,000 jobs to 905,000 jobs by 2035</a> -- assuming, of course, the price of oil holds up.

THE OIL SANDS AND CANADA'S ENVIRONMENT

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  • Syncrude Upgrader and Oil Sands

    The refining or upgrading of the tarry bitumen which lies under the oil sands consumes far more oil and energy than conventional oil and produces almost twice as much carbon. Each barrel of oil requires 3-5 barrels of fresh water from the neighboring Athabasca River. About 90% of this is returned as toxic tailings into the vast unlined tailings ponds that dot the landscape. Syncrude alone dumps 500,000 tons of toxic tailings into just one of their tailings ponds everyday.

  • Boreal Forest and Coast Mountains / Atlin Lake, British Columbia | 2001

    This area, located in the extreme northwest of British Columbia, marks the western boundary of the Boreal region. On the border of the Yukon and Southeast Alaska, the western flank of these mountains descends into Alaska's Tongass Rainforest and British Columbia's Great Bear Rainforest. Far from the oil sands, the greatest remaining coastal temperate and marine ecosystem is imminently threatened by the proposal to build a 750-mile pipeline to pump 550,000 barrels per day of oil sands crude to the coast. Once there, it would be shipped through some of the most treacherous waters, virtually assuring an ecological disaster at some point in the future.

  • Tailings Pond in Winter, Abstract #2 / Alberta Tar Sands | 2010

    Even in the extreme cold of the winter, the toxic tailings ponds do not freeze. On one particularly cold morning, the partially frozen tailings, sand, liquid tailings and oil residue, combined to produce abstractions that reminded me of a Jackson Pollock canvas.

  • Aspen and Spruce | Northern Alberta | 2001

    Photographed in late autumn in softly falling snow, a solitary spruce is set against a sea of aspen. The Boreal Forest of northern Canada is perhaps the best and largest example of a largely intact forest ecosystem. Canada's Boreal Forest alone stores an amount of carbon equal to ten times the total annual global emissions from all fossil fuel consumption.

  • Tar Sands at Night #1 | Alberta Oil Sands | 2010

    Twenty four hours a day the oil sands eats into the most carbon rich forest ecosystem on the planet. Storing almost twice as much carbon per hectare as tropical rainforests, the boreal forest is the planet's greatest terrestrial carbon storehouse. To the industry, these diverse and ecologically significant forests and wetlands are referred to as overburden, the forest to be stripped and the wetlands dredged and replaced by mines and tailings ponds so vast they can be seen from outer space.

  • Dry Tailings #2 | Alberta Tar Sands | 2010

    In an effort to deal with the problem of tailings ponds, Suncor is experimenting with dry tailings technology. This has the potential to limit, or eliminate, the need for vast tailings ponds in the future and lessen this aspect of the oil sands' impact.

  • Tailings Pond Abstract #2 | Alberta Tar Sands / 2010

    So large are the Alberta Tar Sands tailings ponds that they can be seen from space. It has been estimated by Natural Resources Canada that the industry to date has produced enough toxic waste to fill a canal 32 feet deep by 65 feet wide from Fort McMurray to Edmonton, and on to Ottawa, a distance of over 2,000 miles. In this image, the sky is reflected in the toxic and oily waste of a tailings pond.

  • Confluence of Carcajou River and Mackenzie River | Mackenzie Valley, NWT | 2005

    The Caracajou River winds back and forth creating this oxbow of wetlands as it joins the Mackenzie flowing north to the Beaufort Sea. This region, almost entirely pristine, and the third largest watershed basin in the world, will be directly impacted by the proposed Mackenzie Valley National Gas Pipeline to fuel the energy needs of the Alberta Oil Sands mega-project.

  • Black Cliff | Alberta Oil Sands | 2005

    Oil sands pit mining is done in benches or steps. These benches are each approximately 12-15 meters high. Giant shovels dig the oil sand and place it into heavy hauler trucks that range in size from 240 tons to the largest trucks, which have a 400-ton capacity.

  • Oil Sands Upgrader in Winter| Alberta Oil Sands | 2010

    The Alberta oil sands are Canada's single largest source of carbon. They produce about as much annually as the nation of Denmark. The refining of the tar-like bitumen requires more water and uses almost twice as much energy as the production of conventional oil. Particularly visible in winter, vast plumes of toxic pollution fill the skies. The oil sands are so large they create their own weather systems.

  • Boreal Forest and Wetland | Athabasca Delta Northern Alberta | 2010

    Located just 70 miles downstream from the Alberta oil sands, the Athabasca Delta is the world's largest freshwater delta. It lies at the convergence of North America's four major flyways and is a critical stopover for migrating waterfowl and considered one of the most globally significant wetlands. It is threatened both by the massive water consumption of the tar sands and its toxic tailings ponds.

  • Tar Pit #3

    This network of roads reminded me of a claw or tentacles. It represents for me the way in which the tentacles of the tar sands reach out and wreak havoc and destruction. Proposed pipelines to American Midwest, Mackenzie Valley, and through the Great Bear Rainforest will bring new threats to these regions while the pipelines fuel new markets and ensure the proposed five fold expansion of the oil sands.

FOLLOW CANADA BUSINESS

Jeff Rubin has a message for all the economists and central bankers out there, waiting with bated breath for rock-bottom interest rates to kick the world economy into high gear: it’s not going to ha...
Jeff Rubin has a message for all the economists and central bankers out there, waiting with bated breath for rock-bottom interest rates to kick the world economy into high gear: it’s not going to ha...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Mad Hatter 1
09:43 AM on 05/14/2012
We are living in a scam based society.
06:40 AM on 05/14/2012
i can remember when gold was 90 dollars and there were predictions it would go to 200 dollars ---

there were more than enough financial talking head savants who said ---ridiculous will never happen -----it would signal financial armaggeddon-------it made 400 on that particular run
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12:09 PM on 05/14/2012
Likewise I heard in the 70's, we would never see single digit mortgage rates again. The rate was 19% at that time.

Never say never.
06:33 AM on 05/14/2012
remeber rae days ------the tories like to scare people with that ---------

but it seems to be a good and workable solution --------a good idea in lieu of mass firings
12:43 PM on 05/14/2012
Rae has never had a good idea in his life, especially when it comes to pissing away taxpayer dollars.
05:56 PM on 05/14/2012
sorry but you are full of baloney --he is no better no worse than any one else -in the same circumstances
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Runey
religion is why we can't have nice things.
06:07 AM on 05/14/2012
"I once forecast that oil was going to get to $200 a barrel. We can’t even run at $120 a barrel. If you think that emissions and climate change are linked, then that’s a fairly major silver lining."

Considering that erroneous forecast, how many of his forecasts can we rely on?
06:35 AM on 05/14/2012
speaking of forecasts every time i see kevin oleary ---

""""in the long run there is going to be lots of capitalism and democracy in the middle east ----

i cant keep myself from saying ---sure thing nostradumbass
09:34 PM on 05/13/2012
Corporations charge the maximum that consumers are willing to pay. Why is this so hard to comprehend . For everything . This will never change as long as capitalism rules . If someday we become a knowledge based society versus a capialistic society , the human race may actually endeavour . Hopeful thinking, but sometimes thats all the luxury some of us can afford .
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MyTake
Release the Hydrogen Economy now!
01:56 PM on 05/13/2012
Such a pity that this fellow cannot say "The Carbon Economy" which is about to collapse and is now being replaced by "The Hydrogen Economy".

We have lived for over a century from nothing more than that corrupt John D. Rockefeller's 95% monopoly on oil refining which, as designed, manipulates Oil through the stock market and produces no competition at the local gas pump.

That Rockefeller blueprint lives through to this day through the powerful Pratt House (NY) 4000+ membership base of Wealthy and Corporate Elites, as assembled by David Rockefeller, Chairman Emeritus. That membership base controls Wall Street and each U.S. Administration. And no one gets on the BoD's of EXXON or JPMorgan Chase without Rockefeller's personal approval.

Let's say those Twin Towers are The Carbon Economy. The Freedom Tower replacing it is The Hydrogen Economy for it is being POWERED by 12 UTC PureCell Model400 Hydrogen Fuel Cell electrical generators, which have a generating capacity of 4.8 MW and cuts carbon release in the millions of lbs in one year of operation.

SAMSUNG just bought 12 of them to build a fuel cell park to sell electricity onto the grid modeled on this splendid 1 acre Fuel Cell Park that produces electricity for 20,000 homes in S. Korea: http://bit.ly/uiEpnH .

So Rubin should start using the phrase "It is now time to PIVOT away from The Carbon Economy and let The Hydrogen Economy emerge" and after which the World will be just fine!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
skbull44
Check out Olduvai the novel
02:53 PM on 05/13/2012
I think you're overly optimistic about a 'Hydrogen Economy'. Hydrogen is actually more energy-intensive to make than you would get from it. It's a losing proposition. It's the Second Law of Thermodynamics at work.
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11:35 AM on 05/13/2012
About two years ago I read Jeff's first book along with about ten of the other recommended books on peak oil including fairly technical ones like Twilight In The Desert. After reading those I decided that a person only had to read Jeff's book to "get it". I am currently reading his latest.

As far as you smartypants naysayers go I'd like to know how many of you were the chief economist at an international bank for twenty years.
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TonyOnly
Truth matters.
11:28 AM on 05/13/2012
"If you think that emissions and climate change are linked, then that’s a fairly major silver lining."

Why are scientists so concerned about the melting of the polar ice caps? Which we know for a fact is currently taking place.

Because not only will that raise water levels, it will cool the oceans. A half degree fluctuation in ocean temperature keeps our climate as we've come to expect. But a slightly larger decrease in ocean temperature will eliminate the gulf stream. Which would turn Europe into an icebox.

And since all weather on the planet is interconnected as part of the same ecosystem, the resulting storms would spread the cooling across the planet. Relatively quickly, all but the equatorial regions would be engulfed in an ice age.

The temperature of most of the planet descend to about minus 150 degrees Fahrenheit. At that level, nothing mechanical would work. And nothing biological would not freeze to death.

This is what computer programs project if the polar ice caps melt. It's happened before. It could happen again.
03:01 PM on 05/13/2012
Sorry, but your interpretation of climate research is a bit fanciful. It takes a massive input of freshwater (think of draining the Great Lakes) over a short period of time to alter the Gulf Stream.

Melting land ice will raise the sea level over hundreds/thousands of years, but a bigger near-term concern is probably the disappearance of perennial arctic sea ice. This will lead to increased absorption of solar radiation in polar waters, which will amplify the ongoing regional warming and lead to major permafrost thaw and methane releases.
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TonyOnly
Truth matters.
04:44 PM on 05/13/2012
It's not my interpretation.
But perhaps you have a better explanation for the increase in frequency and severity of storms.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
skbull44
Check out Olduvai the novel
11:06 AM on 05/13/2012
I've been following this particular topic and others for the past year and half since seeing the documentary Collapse (highly recommended viewing but it does portray the worst-case scenario--unfortunately, I'm seeing a lot of the predictions in that presentation come to pass).

On the economic front we seem to have two school of thought fighting it out: the Keynesian school where monetising the debt and fiscal stimulus will bring back growth, versus the Austrian school that argues the Keynesian approach will just make things worse.

On the resource depletion issue, again we have two diametrically-opposed views: we are nearing the peak of most resources (the most vital being cheap fossil fuels) and must learn to live within our means (a tough slog with 7+ billiion people), versus the belief that technology will save us (what many would term faith-based reasoning).

I could prattle on for hours on the subject; however, there are plenty of resources by much more informed observers out there. Here are a few of the better ones I've found:
Books
The End of Growth by Richard Heinberg
The Crash Course by Chris Martenson
Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared Diamond
Confronting Collapse by Michael Rupert (basis of the documentary Collapse)
The Collapse of Complex Societies by Joseph Tainter
The Black Swan by Nasim Taleb
Websites
www.energybulletin.net
www.zerogrowthnow.ca (my own fledgling attempt to share info)
www.postcarboninstitute.org
www.zerohedge.com
www.aspousa.org
01:40 PM on 07/28/2012
Actually, the economic debate has been going since forever.
And as Rubin clarifies, there is plenty of oil, and plenty being discovered.
The problem is, the sweet crude oil has limited capacity (and arguably dwindling stock) so we must turn to the so-called dirty oil (the tar sands, the deep sea drilling, etc) and they only operate if oil price is above a certain level. So there's no shortage of stock or capacity, in theory. The question is, at what price will the world consumers start to buckle? Transport? Cars? Industry? If we can somehow navigate within the so-called Goldilocks zone (ie, not too hot, not too cold, but just right) then we may be ok. But chances are, it will fluctuate considerably. When it's low, the dirty oil industry suffers and may have to shutdown (at least for a while) and when it's high, the consumers suffer and will have their ceiling. I think Rubin was assuming that we'd climb out of the recession when he was writing his first book. In which case, the 200 may have transpired. But we didn't, which is why he now questions if we are already where he was prediction for the post 200 scenario. A chilling notion indeed. But if we do manage to dig out, I still think his reasoning for the 200 is possible. We shall see.
08:28 AM on 05/13/2012
This situation of spiraling fuel/energy cost impacting growth has happened through the ages and humans adapt. I am sure if printing was available then someone would have wrote a book about the end of cheap horses or end of cheap coal or end of slave labour or end of whatever and the impact on growth.

Rubin is just peddling another book to increase his growth in income. It is mostly in the "developed" world that we freak out about things we have no control over. We would be wise to take a lesson from the"third world" people who are quick to adapt alternatives due to honed survival skills and the imperative to adapt to changing situations.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
skbull44
Check out Olduvai the novel
11:09 AM on 05/13/2012
"This situation of spiraling fuel/energy cost impacting growth has happened through the ages and humans adapt."

If you define 'ages' as the past 100-150 years, you may be correct. However, if we consider that the species has been on the planet for tens of thousands of years, then you are, in fact, incorrect.

It is only since the mid-1800s that we have relied on oil and its energy--there is no replacement for this resource, particularly when it comes to fueling our extensive transportation requirements.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
RealPolotik
Steal Yo Face.
12:44 PM on 05/14/2012
You are misinformed there are in fact many alternative to oil. Many being plant life.

The first Model T was made of Hemp resin and ran off Hemp gasoline. In the Past there were many other alternative. However, Big Oil used their money to influence politicians and get legislation passed in their favor creating a monopoly.

http://www.rense.com/general67/FORD.HTM
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
skbull44
Check out Olduvai the novel
04:26 PM on 05/14/2012
Unfortunately, there is not nearly enough arable land (or fossil-fuel based pesticides and fertilisers) to grow enough plants such as hemp or corn for ethanol to fuel our needs...let alone keep 7+ billion fed. That's what the supporters of such plans fail to share.
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12:51 PM on 05/13/2012
It is an interesting human phenomenon - when we don't understand something, we simplify it so we can deal with it. In the same manner as the comment above. Better just to say maybe or I don't know.
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TT Esty1
Where did the 7 Dwarfs work?
04:27 AM on 05/13/2012
A major change in agriculture from good old farming was the introduction of petroleum based components and genetically modified crops. Agriculture is very dependent on petroleum and draws it away from traditional uses such as transportation. The use of petroleum in agriculture increases the cost and will further increase the cost of produce as the price of oil increases.

Another interesting aspect to the aggro-business is the development of feed that was not normally used as feed. Thus non-carnivorous animals are fed a blend of animal protein. Natural fertilizers are replaced by synthetic chemical fertilizers. Thus, the food that we are eating has undergone change. However the aggro-corporations have gone a step further and actually created food for humans in the same manner that they do for livestock. Pink slime is one example. We may not end up with a 'Soylent Green' scenario but not far off.
01:25 AM on 05/13/2012
Reading the comments people don't seem to understand that the cheap oil has peaked. According to Wikipedia of 1.8 trillion barrels that exist in the oil or tar sands only 170 billion are economically viable. Not very much. Even double that with technology. Not very much. So some day soon the stuff that's not so cheap is going to peak and we will be in a pickle. Oil runs everything so unless we find a cheap way to create hydrogen, where done. I'm glad I getting older, I really feel for the young people and the mess they will inherit.
01:21 AM on 05/13/2012
" a resurgence in ...agriculture.." Ask him what the heck he means by that. Last time I looked, agriculture was doing pretty good with returns on investment and productivity. Grains and oilseeds have been great for example. Never trust a townie with pronouncements about agriculture, they are often quite naive and ignorant about the reality in that industry.
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MJinCanada
Safe from zombies until my 2nd cup of coffee
02:51 AM on 05/13/2012
"agriculture was doing pretty good with returns on investment and productivity"

Are you talking about stock markets or actual farmers?

Agriculture for many years has moved towards corporate farming and industrial-type livestock production. If it becomes too expensive to truck beef 2000 km to market, or truck wheat 60 km to a monster grain elevator, there's going to be a resurgence of more diverse agriculture on, perhaps, smaller farms again, closer to what it was when there were wooden grain elevators every 8 miles along prairie railway tracks -- because 8 to 10 miles to and from the elevator was a good day's haul for a team of horses and a wagon.
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audioscapist
03:08 AM on 05/13/2012
mass agro is sure doing well, but that is producing all kinds of problems of its own. people often don't realize how little nutrition their vegetables are giving them because they were all picked unripe, and 'ripened' during shipping while receiving no sunlight or nutrients. mass agro monocultures are also suspect for bee population problems. the average age of farmers is now 50-55 because there are no younger farmers taking up the trade (in terms of the family farm).
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09:41 PM on 05/12/2012
Only an UNCIVILIZED species like humans would cause all this poisoning of our planet like in the headline photo above. We are just plain stupid and we deserve to be punished by nature's wrath!
09:10 PM on 05/12/2012
I am surprised that it takes this long for Rubin to figure out that the world economy is inversely tied to the price of oil.
I am just as surprised that so many people are still so foolishly following him - like this interviewer.

I have lost all faith in him when he first proposed $200/barrel oil in 2008. Unfortunately a lot of people followed him to great losses.
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Msquad99
Space is a vacuum because earth sucks.
10:47 PM on 05/12/2012
"I have lost all faith in him when he first proposed $200/barrel oil in 2008."

So it is not 2008. The world is at 120 a barrel now. Stick around, you will get your 200 a barrel.
11:29 PM on 05/12/2012
Sorry, you miss the point. Given time every thing will go up, it is called inflation. There is no prophetic wisdom in saying it will get to $200 a barrel someday. He was predicting that it will get up to that price by the end of 2008.

The world economy can not handle that then and still can not handle that now. It took Rubin until now to realize it.