Roger Gibbins, Canada West Foundation President Joins Senate Reform Skeptics

CP  |  By Posted: 05/13/2012 11:32 am Updated: 05/15/2012 12:18 pm

OTTAWA - For a generation, Senate reform has been a political touchstone for Conservatives, old-time Reform party types and disgruntled westerners.

The Triple-E Senate — equal, elected and effective — was both a political dogma and a rallying cry.

It helped spur the rise of Reform and the Harper Conservatives who followed. It was the mantra of the right, the path to real equality for the regions.

Not so much anymore. The fire has gone out of the argument and dyed-in-the-wool supporters are questioning the whole idea.

Even the departing head of a Western Canadian think tank that preached the Senate reform gospel for decades has had a sudden conversion on the road to Damascus.

Roger Gibbins, who steps down later this month as president and CEO of the Canada West Foundation, joins Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall and former Stephen Harper campaign strategist Tom Flanagan among influential westerners who've come to the conclusion Senate reform — as currently envisioned — is either unnecessary or misguided.

The dissenting chorus comes with the "Holy Grail" of Senate reform closer to reality than ever, as Conservative majorities in both the House of Commons and the Senate can fast-track any legislation they consider a priority.

Yet a government bill that would limit senators to a single nine-year term and encourage provincial Senate elections is meandering, at best, through the legislative process.

While Tim Uppal, Harper's minister of democratic reform, calls Bill C-7 "one of my top priorities," it's hard not to get the sense that Senate reform has lost its mojo.

"I think we're now into a new reality where you can't form a national government without strength in Western Canada," Gibbins, a professor at the University of Calgary, told The Canadian Press in an interview.

"The Senate was the sort of Holy Grail in parts of Western Canada as the way to provide a regional voice in the national government. So if people begin to feel comfortable that voice is going to be there anyway, then the Senate becomes a less critical reform."

Gibbins, however, did not stop there.

He said "another reality is starting to sink in" — a reality he concedes is "preaching against the doctrine" of the Canada West Foundation during his 14 years of leadership.

"If we have a Senate that's elected and effective to some degree — but the seat distribution doesn't change — then we're into a situation where an elected Senate may be detrimental to the interests of the West," said Gibbins.

The four western provinces are vastly under-represented in the 105-seat chamber, with only six seats each. The four Atlantic provinces, despite much smaller populations than the West, have a combined 30 seats; Ontario and Quebec each have 24.

As long as that distribution remains unchanged, Gibbins said: "To the extent that the Senate becomes a more influential body — and that's uncertain — but to the extent that it does, it would shift power into Atlantic Canada and away from the West."

That Gibbins is repeating the very arguments made by former Liberal intergovernmental affairs minister Stephane Dion is nothing short of jaw-dropping.

As recently as April 10, the foundation he still leads was mocking Dion in print for his continued warnings about half-baked Senate tinkering.

"Contrary to the doomsayers, if marking an X beside a Senate candidate helps set in motion a good old fashioned constitutional crisis, this may be just what we need," wrote Robert Roach, the Canada West Foundation's vice-president of research.

Wall, the conservative-minded premier of Saskatchewan, may have made a more devastating case against Senate reform than Gibbins: irrelevance.

Wall flatly asserted to The Canadian Press in a recent interview that a Triple E Senate was "not going to happen."

More significantly, Wall doesn't consider that troubling, given the increased clout of provincial governments.

He said downloading on the provinces under the Liberals in the 1990s and devolution of powers under the Harper government have resulted in "a real strengthening and concentration of authority in provincial capitals."

"For Saskatchewan, that's not a bad thing," said Wall.

Others still see Senate reform — any reform — as movement toward the ultimate goal of equal regional representation in Parliament.

"Half a loaf is always better than no loaf," said Deb Grey, the first Reform MP elected to the House of Commons back in 1989 when "western alienation" was gaining steam.

"You just say, hey, it's a step in the right direction — one that we never thought would happen in our lifetime. So you say, 'good on them, keep at it.'"

By contrast, another old Reform Party stalwart, Tom Flanagan, was quoted last fall saying the current reform bill "scares me, to be honest."

Peter McCormick, a political scientist at the University of Lethbridge, said a lot of people who examine the reform issue closely come to the same conclusion: Without first fixing the inequality issue, giving the Senate increased influence and legitimacy locks in its worst flaws.

McCormick said Harper has begun "nibbling at the corners" but argued that's a mistake.

"Do the easy stuff and then the hard stuff becomes not hard, it becomes impossible," said the academic. "And without the hard stuff, it's probably more harm than good."

Certainly the pace of Bill C-7, introduced last June, does not suggest a sense of government urgency.

It has yet to go to committee, and was last debated in the Commons on Feb. 27, a debate in which Hansard records only a single Conservative intervention in the form of a question.

In the meantime, Alberta has held another round of Senate elections, B.C. Premier Christy Clark has promised her province will follow suit and the Quebec government, as promised, has formally launched a court reference challenging the constitutionality of the reform bill.

Given all these developments, one might expect some priority in passing the legislation, if only to set down a parliamentary marker for the courts and provinces to consider.

Uppal — who would only consent to a five-minute phone interview to discuss Senate reform, during which he repeated rote talking points regardless of the question asked — would not put a timeline on Bill C-7's passage.

"It's going through the parliamentary process," Uppal said, full stop.

Perhaps the government is taking Gibbins' counsel after all.

"Maybe we want to be cautious about this in terms of making sure we have a Senate that will work," he warned.

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09:49 AM on 05/14/2012
Simple. The guys who wanted reform won.
Now that they can do as they want they don't want to reform the system as that would mean giving up their newfound power.
Not so curious as it is blatently hypocritical.
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Buffalobrave
06:55 AM on 05/14/2012
Why get rid of just the Senate. Get rid of over half the MPs and MPPs. We have nothing but a parliamentary dictatorship with the present system of government anyway.
We need a true representative type of government which would be more democratic.
08:42 PM on 05/13/2012
So in an "equal" senate, Ontario with 10 million people has the same representation as PEI with 100 000 people? It ain't goin a happen. The best thing that could happen to Canada is to abolish the senate altogether, introduce a single national vote whereby the cabinet is elected in conjunction with the MP's. An MP would represent the district while a group of nationally elected, winner takes all "Cabinet Ministers and Prime Minister" from a party would represent the priorities of the country as a whole. Let the provinces represent themselves as has always been. It is in Cabinet in our Parliamentary system where the real power is and it is here where the populace has the least say.
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sdgreen
11:43 PM on 05/13/2012
On the other hand, a second chamber of sober second thought, forces the government to stop and at least review the Legislation before such proclaimed into larw. The problem is that if the Senate (the second Legislative Chamber) is stacked as both the Liberals and Conservatives have done, then that second sober thought may be useless. So somehow we need to fix the Prime Ministers power to be the power of appointment. Either the Govenor General does so directly, or each Province elects their Senator.

The question of 'how many senators from each Province in my mind is not especially important. Perhaps two or three for each Province and Territory. Remember their function is to review the Bills, not withstanding now they can create their own Bills for consideration.

The keywords is equal and effective.
07:47 PM on 05/13/2012
Let the provincial governments appoint the senators, and have their terms extend for as long as that provincial government is in power. The Senate should be taken out of the hands of Federal governments... it's a conflict of interest to have the PMO appointing people to the Senate. It needs to be at arms-length if it is to be useful.

I'm opposed to elected senators... that just preserves the "money=power" dynamic present in current politics. The people who would have the money to run, as well as the desire to give up a career to put themselves through the partisan campaigns, would likely be the least desirable people to run this country. If senators are appointed by elected provincial governments (maybe 5 by ruling party and 2 by opposition), you would still likely see patronage, but you'd likely also have a more diverse and relevant Senate.

But... how to deal with the number of Senators for each province? Equal or population-based?
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patrickwwalker
07:32 PM on 05/13/2012
The wisdom of our founding fathers was to make our Senate toothless. Reform is not really needed and I personally oppose the idea of pursuing the American model of another elected body. That only will create more corruption and campaign contribution debacles.
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opprobrious
More speech. Less Flagging.
07:01 PM on 05/13/2012
I'm of the belief that it cannot be reformed so one either accepts it as some facsimile of a "sober second thought" or one supports dissolving it altogether. Might I suggest one drink heavily whilst they reflect.
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MJinCanada
Safe from zombies until my 2nd cup of coffee
06:04 PM on 05/13/2012
Well, duh. Now that Harper can stack the senate with cronies and party workers, he doesn't want to "reform" it anymore.

The only reform the senate really needs is that political hacks should be disqualified. All members should have achieved something in a field outside of political office or campaigning. If we have teachers, scientists, engineers, foreign aid workers, ethical entrepreneurs, etc., instead of politicians, the senate will be a resource of knowledge and information.
05:58 PM on 05/13/2012
"nothing short of jaw-dropping." Only to those naive enough or ignorant enough or ideologically deluded enough to actually believe the Harper-led Reformers. Not jaw-dropping to anyone clearly seeing through the Harper hypocrisies from the start. What is jaw-dropping are the number of people who refused -- and still refuse -- to see through the Harperites' game plan.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Canadian on the border
05:53 PM on 05/13/2012
they should have kept the bills seperate, go for term limits first, then when more of harper's senators are in then go for bigger things, i personally would prefer abolishing the senate but term limits are the next best thing, why not have 4 year term limits or 1 year term limits so the senate never bothers the house
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MJinCanada
Safe from zombies until my 2nd cup of coffee
06:05 PM on 05/13/2012
You object to having "sober second thought"?
TheRenaissanceMan
A starry-eyed idealist with too much time
06:44 PM on 05/13/2012
At this point, its just a waste of money.
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Another Pesky Canadian
Talk - action = 0
08:51 PM on 05/13/2012
"Sober second thought" by a Senate majority consisting of cronies selected by the Prime Minister du Jour?

Oh, please.
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Kristopher Leang
training to take down the elite
05:01 PM on 05/13/2012
The last thing we want is senate form believe you me.. 1. Harper would not have to actually select the elected person, he only has to consider them, this alone is insane.

2. and most damaging of all is if the senate gains electoral legitimacy (ie is an elected body) they can completely shed their neutral guise, and act for "the interest of those who voted for them".

what does this mean exactly?? well it means our two houses would act much like the US system, with each hosue constantly blocking the others and trying to impose their own laws.

that means even if we manage to kick these conservative hooligans out they may still have a majority in the senate, able to block liberal and NDP bills, and implement their own. It would mean forced "compromise" not only at the house of commons level, but in the senate as well and between these two. Slowly but surely our system would slow down, and voter disenfranchisement grows as people see an ineffective and stunned political system.

Young people and those who generally vote left give up on voting, meanwhile th etalk show listening old timers come out en masse . this is appearing more and more like we are morphing into a United states political nightmare.. i am very scared..
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AuntiFascist
Taking back our democracy
04:31 PM on 05/13/2012
Get rid of it. It's not democratic given its appointed. It's partisan and divisive. It's expensive. If reformed it would trigger gridlock along the lines of the US model. So..........get rid of it altogether. New Zealand did and never looked back.