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Hey Protesters: Our Top 1% Differs From U.S.

Posted: 10/18/11 03:43 PM ET

What does interim NDP Leader Nycole Turmel, have in common with Phillip Brown, General Manager of the City of Toronto's Shelter Housing Support and 65 employees at the Hospital for Sick Children?

By analysing government documents I have calculated that they earn in excess of the $181,000 that grants them membership to Canada's demonized one per cent, that many participating in Toronto's very own Occupy Wall Street spin-off are directing their anger towards. By comparison, the top one per cent of earners in the United States earn closer to $300,000.

The Occupy Wall Street movement that has spread around the world with a series of protests has lacked a clear or consistent message and instead allowed the disaffected to seize the opportunity to speak out on the issue of their choosing. The clearest messages that have come out of the original protest on Wall Street focused on the "greed" of the top one per cent, the apparent insufficient taxation of the rich and the multibillion dollar bailouts of American banks.

It appears that grievances migrated to Canada with complaints about the top one per cent of earners and bank bailouts, as protesters in Toronto chanted, "We got sold out, the banks got bailed out" and "We are the 99 per cent". It's worth noting that none of Canada's banks were bailed out and in fact Canada's banking system has been praised as a model of stability for the world. Canada's top income earners are taxed at a rate of 46 per cent, compared to about 23 per cent for their American counterparts.

It's hard to imagine that those camped out in St. James Park seriously blame the interim leader of Canada's New Democratic Party, a municipal worker who dedicates his career to housing the homeless or a few dozen highly trained employees at one of the world's best Children's hospital for Canada's social and economic ills. Yet the imported chants and rhetoric that have fueled Saturday's march targeted these individuals, because of their incomes.

A handmade cardboard sign that lays near the path that enters St. James Park, now home to Occupy Toronto, reads "This Concerns Everyone." It turns out "this" is an apt definition for what is happening in Toronto and around the world.


While referred to as a movement, the 'occupy phenomenon' spreading around the world is poorly defined and lacks some of the key necessities that define social movements. The most glaring deficiencies, that are also significant barriers to success, are a lack of common purpose, and a resistance to defining specific target or demands.

A quick read of famous community organizer Saul Alinsky's seminal text "Rules for Radicals" would provide occupy supporters with perspective on the pitfalls of this 99 per cent vs. one per cent strategy while also outlining key conditions for winning. Four examples of Alinsky's advice that would come in handy to occupiers:

  • 'A tactic that drags on for too long becomes a drag. Commitment may become ritualistic as people turn to other issues.' (Occupy Wall Street began September 17th and has been a 24 hour a day commitment for hundreds of people since.)
  • Keep the pressure on. Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period for your purpose. (The tactics and actions have remained largely the same.)
  • The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Avoid being trapped by an opponent or an interviewer who says, "Okay, what would you do?" (No constructive alternative has been proposed by any of the occupy movements to date.)
  • Pick a target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Don't try to attack abstract corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or spread the blame. (No target has been selected, instead abstract targets, ideologies and philosophies have been attacked. Occupy supporters are themselves shifting and spreading the blame.)

Occupy Toronto has benefited from an incredible amount of media attention. There is a clear willingness of media to tell their story, organizers just need to develop it. Picking a specific target, having clear demands and a plan will make it easier to keep the pressure on and find success before the tactic that has become the name and purpose of the movement; occupying, becomes a drag.

 

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What does interim NDP Leader Nycole Turmel, have in common with Phillip Brown, General Manager of the City of Toronto's Shelter Housing Support and ...
What does interim NDP Leader Nycole Turmel, have in common with Phillip Brown, General Manager of the City of Toronto's Shelter Housing Support and ...
 
 
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11:17 PM on 10/19/2011
I found this from the Canadian Center for Policy alternatives.

"Canada’s richest 1%1 — the 246,000 privileged few whose average income is $405,000 — took almost a third (32%) of all growth in incomes in the fastest growing decade in this generation, 1997 to 2007.
Think that’s normal? The last time the economy grew so fast was in the 1950s and 60s, when the richest 1% of Canadians took only 8% of all income growth.
The richest 1% took almost a third of all growth in one of the slowest growing decades in recent history too, 1987 to 1997. This eclipses anything seen before in Canadian history, including the share of gains eaten up by the richest 1% in the Roaring Twenties."

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2010/12/Richest%201%20Percent.pdf

Still think the 1% in Canada aren't part of the problem John?

And from the same source:
There were 24.6 million taxfilers in Canada in 2007. The richest 1% made more than $169,000 and had an average income of $404,000. The richest 0.1% made more than $621,000 and had an average income of $1.49 million. The richest 0.01% made more than $1.85 million and had an average income of $3.83 million.
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John Laforet
01:06 AM on 10/20/2011
If we're going after everyone who makes more than $169,000 then I think you've missed my point about who that includes entirely. Blaming healthcare professionals at Sick Kids, senior civil servants and the leader of the NDP for all of Canada's social ills? Give me a break.

Again, move the bar a little higher and I begin to see the inequality you're trying to raise.

I also don't see how blaming the workers for their incomes makes them part of the problem? Once again I think if that's you're issue you need to look even higher up the income totem pole.
10:41 AM on 10/20/2011
The figure in question isn't $169,000 it is $404,000.

Did you notice the bit in the CCPA quote about those in the 1% garnering 32% of the income growth. Do you think that is a good thing?
10:58 PM on 10/19/2011
"By analysing government documents I have calculated that they earn in excess of the $181,000 that grants them membership to Canada's demonized one per cent, ..."

Where do you get this from? Statistics Canada only breaks things down by quintiles. The Canadian Council on Social Development puts the average family income of the top decile at $185,700. I haven't been able to find a figure for the top 1% in Canada, but if the CCSD figures are accurate it is certainly much greater than the $181,000 that you claim qualifies for membership in the 1%.
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John Laforet
01:08 AM on 10/20/2011
CTV has the latest Stats Can figures on the top one percent of earners and it's linked to in the article.

Based on those figures the bar (unfortunately for your argument is $181,000). Even if you raise it to $300,000 there are still a whole host of medical staff at Sick Kids saving lives you're swinging at for their success instead of doing something productive about the inequality you see.
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Bernard L Eastman
06:19 PM on 10/19/2011
Distorted. The issue is about income and asset disparity not simply income disparity. Over the past 20 to 30 years, the income, tax, corporation regulations, or lack thereof and "Globalization" have allowed 1% of North Americans to become the beneficiaries of over 90 % of the assets and income.
The "1% - 99%" is symbolic - not to be turned into an accountants debate. The real figures (well documented statistics) of the disparity are horrific and if continued would lead North America back to the feudalism of Europe 400 years ago.
Do Canadians believe in "a government of the people, by the people and for the people". If so, it is simply not possible to achieve that goal with "1%" controlling all the wealth, media, politicians, and turning the "middle class" into a pool of desperate people, many unemployed, competing for the crumbs thrown off by the wealthy elite.
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John Laforet
01:14 AM on 10/20/2011
What are you talking about 'symbolic' statistics? Are you serious? You rhyme off a bunch of stats that concern you and then say that the actual facts don't matter because the symbol of an incorrect or distorted fact makes a better sound byte?

I have to say I am amazed by this whole thing, if not just because the looseness of the concerns and degree of rhetoric.

'many unemployed' in the middle class? Define many because Canada's unemployment rate would not suggest that 'many' is yet another 'symbolic' statement as is the claim of 'crumbs' being all the middle class have to work with.

There are real issues but you delegitimize them with arguments that aren't fact based, a lack of demands or coherent plan to do anything but identify things you don't like and sleep in the rain until it gets too cold to stay or you've convinced these people you believe are evil to suddenly change their ways and hand over their capital.
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Bernard L Eastman
10:05 AM on 10/20/2011
Pardon me, I have read and studied the statistics which you seek to ignore with your blather. Your are a deflector for the wealth elite. Not fooling anyone.
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Bernard L Eastman
10:11 AM on 10/20/2011
And do not misquote me. I said that the "1% - 99%" was symbolic of the reality shown by the statistics showing the ever growing wealth and income disparity in North America.

You seem to like to ignore what people who do not agree with you say, and just make it up your own way. Talk about "coherent plan" - how about lack of coherence in your last paragraph!
03:01 PM on 10/19/2011
The OWS protesters are getting organized and, since the US Congress will likely try to ignore them, will probably become a third political party in the US. Their nascent declaration can be seen at:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

There is much to agree with and some to disagree with in this document, but it is a work in process and subject to change.

Mr Laforet will note that other than in the name, there is no mention made of the 1% 99% disparity. And yes, it is more like 0.1% who are at the heart of the problem ( some put it at 400 individuals ) 99% does roll off the tongue somewhat easier.
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John Laforet
06:31 PM on 10/19/2011
The political science junkie in me thinks the July 4th 2012 convention is a neat idea and I hope they do in fact find 2 people from every district to participate and that those who do participate are from a wide range of views, including those who earn just under this arbitrary 1% mark.

I am not confident that this group is representative of anywhere near 99% of anything, let alone the general population and I think it will be hard for them to create a demographically balanced assembly.

Because something sounds good is hardly a reason to make it the purpose of your cause. Articulating your actual issues is more important and leaves less opportunity to point out glaring logical flaws.

If it's 400 individuals, go after them. It's a more compelling argument. if thats the issue for these folks, then swinging at the 1% because it sounds better.
10:50 PM on 10/19/2011
Why are you so fixated on the 1% thing? The income disparity is only a result of the deeper problems deriving from the influence of moneyed interests in government. That is the first thing addressed in their declaration. Did you actually read it?

And despite the campaign funding laws, the same problem prevails here in Canada. We have the Harper government hell-bent on advancing the corporate agenda. Why?
09:37 AM on 10/19/2011
Well I agree that Canada does not suffer some of the systemic problems of the US.
We do need to be vigilant. Yesterday the Tories voted to scrap the wheatboard. This will only put money into the hands of America's one percent. For the last twenty years there has been a steady march to destroy small scale family farm prodcuers and replace them with American owned conglomerates, the slaughter industry is the purest example.

Don't feel too safe in Canada- the greed of america's one percent reaches up North.

When the family owned Canadian company ( that I used to work for) was bought out by an American company-it was simply a slaughter and rape.
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John Laforet
01:38 PM on 10/19/2011
I still think talking about the '1%' is a stretch. A lawyer or doctor in Phoenix or San Diego isn't going t get rich off of what Stephen Harper is doing with the Canadian Wheat Board. Those who stand to benefit are far fewer than the top '1%'.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the state of Canadian farming. I've spent a lot of time in rural Ontario, working with farmers and know how the local abattoir's have suffered and in many cases closed recently. The interesting thing there is local farmers and abattoir owners blame increased regulation that the government defends as being about food safety (although to meet the regs prices local abattoirs out of the slaughter business).

In a situation like that, the question becomes how to balance the government's desire for increased food safety and the reality that local businesses can't afford to meet those standards. Do we relax the standards, or find some acceptable financial instrument to allow the government to support the impacted businesses, or do we do what McGuinty let happen and just allow a bunch of them to go out of business.
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sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
07:12 AM on 10/19/2011
Why is it when regular people take notice of the systemic inequality of the system it is class warfare? Why is recognizing that the richest 1% have been accumulating a greater and greater percentage of the overall wealth, and claiming it is unfair, is demonizing the 1%? Why are the 1% such crybabies? Waaaah, people dont like that we control the vast majority of the wealth even though we represent a tiny percentage of the population, waaaaah. Quit your crying. You don't see us crying. We are angry. What you are seeing is rage, anger, bitterness, contempt, lack of faith, and yes, hatred, of those who have everything and are unwilling to let the rest of us have a few crumbs. At first you laughed at us. Then you made fun of us. Now you are getting scared. Wise of you.
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John Laforet
10:52 AM on 10/19/2011
I would hardly argue that those participating in Occupy Toronto are 'regular' people. They do not represent 99% of the population, in fact they are opposed to any form of representational leadership internally which suggests each individual literally only represents themselves.

I haven't heard this so-called '1%' cry about anything? Who is speaking for them, let alone defending themselves against the Occupy Toronto movement?

I don't think anyone has laughed or made fun of occupy Toronto folks, and am certain decision makers and business elites are not scared. I wouldn't even call what is happening ignoring Occupy Toronto, because they are no demands, no targets and no solutions being put forward by the so-called movement.

Whenever you do anything that involves action, you need an exit strategy, Occupy Toronto doesn't have one.

In your message you've gone after the 1% as they do, and provided no sense of what it is you actually seek or how you'd like that to work. It's unrealistic to expect anything will change if you can't articulate what, how or where you want that change to happen.
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TT Esty1
Failure is a temporary condition.
01:31 AM on 10/19/2011
Alinsky also said, 'Tactics mean doing what you can with what you have.'

You are seeing a new paradigm being developed and, perhaps, wedded to the paradigm of your experience, it is difficult for you to appreciate this new one. Moreover, as with any new paradigm, there is a strong pull to have it fit the old one. As with any new paradigm, it is an evolving design not entirely free of remnants of the old.

At this time, it is difficult to say whether this new paradigm will be revolutionary or evolutionary. However, try to understand what is happening not what is suppose to happen.
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John Laforet
10:48 AM on 10/19/2011
Alinsky also said not to take your supporters outside of their own experiences, which is exactly what the consensus based approach has done. The media has demonstrated Alinsky's point about what happens when you take your supporters outside their own experiences by showing how hard it is for these groups to decide anything.

They've attempted to build a movement without purpose, leadership, focus or a plan -- I don't think it can be either revolutionary or evolutionary at this stage because it amounts to a couple hundred people fighting against abstract concepts while the 99.999% of regular folks go about their day to day life, unimpacted by who is sleeping in a park and why they've chosen to.
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TT Esty1
Failure is a temporary condition.
04:32 PM on 10/19/2011
You are into an immediate gratification mode of your old paradigm. You are applying old strategies to new events. Actually, that is the whole problem with the economy.

Sometimes when you make an investment, you have to wait for it to materialize and that materialization may be different from expectations. I bet that Steve Jobs didn't have a concept of the iPhone when he cobbled together his first computer.

Try stepping outside the box - if just on a dare.
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Bernard L Eastman
06:31 PM on 10/19/2011
How simplistic! How inaccurate and distorting of the reality on the streets. Furthermore the people on the streets are brave souls willing to put up with the discomfort of OWS whether in New York or other cities of North America. They represent millions of people in North America who are enraged at the wealth disparity and its effects over the last decades and culminating in the financial crimes committed in 2007-2008 and which have been with any meaningful punishment for those who have gained billions at the expense of the average citizens.
11:24 PM on 10/18/2011
"The Occupy Wall Street movement that has spread around the world with a series of protests has lacked a clear or consistent message and instead allowed the disaffected to seize the opportunity to speak out on the issue of their choosing. "

As some sage has pointed out, the protesters are aware they have been screwed, and by whom, but are unclear as to just how. To further complicate things, there is no single how. However, at the forefront of the many ways people have been screwed are such things as jobs being outsourced to China, Mexico, and India, houses foreclosed on based on forged documents, savings destroyed by near zero interest rates and the inflationary effects of QE1 &QE2, and to top it all off having the futures of our children and grandchildren mortgaged to fund the insane idea that failed businesses should be bailed out by the taxpayer.

The salient result of the advancement of these and other corporate agendas is the growing disparity between the 99% and the 1%. That disparity is, in part, a result of the same root cause as the above. That cause has been clearly identified by Dylan Ratigan here on HP and reiterated in Canada by Dr. Suzuki. That root cause is the excessive influence in government (yes even in Canada) by corporations and other moneyed interests. Globalization, free trade, deregulation, and the bailout meme are all the agenda of the corporations.
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John Laforet
11:44 PM on 10/18/2011
The 99% vs 1% is a misnomer that discredits a lot of legitimate concerns people raise.

I won't take the Suzuki bait but his ideas for Ontario's economy would be bankrupting for the 99% who would be living in energy poverty and unemployed.

He also endorsed McGuinty whose donor list reads like a who's who of special interests that the Premier's policies clearly benefit.
12:19 AM on 10/19/2011
"The 99% vs 1% is a misnomer that discredits a lot of legitimate concerns people raise. "

Not quite! Read the first sentence in my third paragraph again. While the root problem lies with the 0.1% (or less) there is a growing disparity between the incomes of the 1% and the 99%. The fact that many of the protesters identify with that says nothing about other concerns. It is just one grievance among many.

I disagree with Suzuki on green energy, (nuclear in the form of liquid fluoride thorium breeders is the way forward IMO) but he hit the mark with his comments about democracy in Canada.

" He also endorsed McGuinty whose donor list reads like a who's who of special interests that the Premier's policies clearly benefit. "

Again! All the problems stem from the excessive influence of these special interests. That applies to all parties, voters are given a Hobson's choice. Would you have us believe that Hudak is any better in that regard?
09:27 PM on 10/18/2011
keep in mind 1% is used because it sounds better than ".1%". The real people being targeted my this movement are a very small group, much less than one percent.
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John Laforet
10:36 PM on 10/18/2011
Thats a really good point and I agree with what you're saying on why the 1% was chosen as opposed to the .1%. They could have used another approach to labelling those they are really seeking to complain about that didn't require a percentage. Particularly in Canada, the top 1% is a pretty mild group and many of whom like the Sick Kids employees I referenced or civil servants haven't done anything to warrant the vitriol they are receiving based on their income.
09:15 PM on 10/18/2011
The article refers to "Rules for Radicals" then contrasts (4 of 11) examples of a good social movement. Though I'm sure S. Alinsky is a very legitimate source, I don't think the comparison is valid.. the movement seems to follow more than 4 rules.

To say the Occupy Canada demonstrators lack a voice is true. To say their facts are wrong is also true, but this is the same as the Occupy America movement generally. I don't think a common voice is neccessary in a movement. But the anti-capitalism, anit-establishment themes are present.

For me, the movement is the social expression of deep rooted discontent and mistrust of the political and economic systems of the western world.

This is a nicely written article, but the author doesn't consider Huffington Post's audience, who are (as implied) web-savvy and anti-establishment.
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John Laforet
10:16 PM on 10/18/2011
The four 'examples' aren't contrasted with Rules for Radical, they are actually some of the advice Saul Alinsky gives in Rules for Radicals. He was for a long time the source for organizing to create mass movements for social change, which is what this fundamentally is an attempt at.

I agree you can have many voices within a movement but you need a consistent message and a set of demands if you hope to get any action outside of showing you don't like what is currently happening.

I think Occupy Toronto and other Occupy equivalents have the opportunity to cause change if they seize the potential. That is the purpose of pointing to Alinsky and critiquing some aspects of what is currently happening that I think actually hurts their chances (not using valid arguments for Canada as an example).

Alinsky is perhaps the most famous anti-establishment organizer and basically the founder of community organizing. Being web-savvy can be an important element of telling a story and organizing, but for folks using boots on the ground strategies like the occupy movement, the Alinsky model is important -- or you have the risk of three people showing up at a protest, as happened on Bay Street today.
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Bernard L Eastman
06:43 PM on 10/19/2011
Agreed. But I am curious about the Huffpost readers being anti-establishment. Is this a guess, opinion or are there some studies of stats?
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cwebster
predominantly exasperated
06:45 PM on 10/18/2011
I don't care if someone is earning 500,000/year. Top lawyers, doctors...whatever. They "earn" it.

CEOs get paid in millions, or get perks and benefits worht millions. They do not "earn" it. Nor do they deserve golden parachutes.
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John Laforet
09:43 PM on 10/18/2011
It's an interesting distinction you make that I think has been lost in the 1% rhetoric. I think if people thought more about it they'd come to a similar conclusion that you have.

What you're identifying as the problem is closer to the 0.1% which is almost exclusively CEO's and other C level executives who are also more prone to find ways out of the 46% tax rate those closer to $500,000/year a partner or surgeon would be paying.
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cwebster
predominantly exasperated
12:55 AM on 10/19/2011
I think it's an important distinction. Doctors, lawyers, researchers, scientists and other professionals have studied in specialized fields and earn their income. CEOs are basically glorified salesmen, and they in no way "earn" their over the top pay. I think there should be a limit to CEO compensation, and no-one should be getting a bonus automatically. Most of them get a bonus even when they've cost the company a fortune.
06:42 PM on 10/18/2011
In the US demonstration supporter Glenn Greenwald has noted that the "top one per cent" vilified by the protests is closer to the "top tenth of one per cent." Those who actually benefit by corporate neo-liberalism are less than one per cent of the population.
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John Laforet
09:47 PM on 10/18/2011
Good point, it seems a whole 0.9% of the 1% are being thrown in with the top .1% as you've said. The reality is, as Saul Alinsky identified in his work, there are the have nots, the have a little, want mores and the haves. It's not as clean as 99% vs. 1% or even 99.9% vs. .01% People who are have a little, want mores wouldn't identify with this so-called '99%' but are grouped in by those Alinsky would call the have nots, who claim to speak for them.
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Bernard L Eastman
06:48 PM on 10/19/2011
Agreed it is not as "clean as 99% vs 1%". What is so difficult about recognizing that this is simply symbolic of the larger issues?
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Doctor Nick
Hi, everybody!
03:50 PM on 10/18/2011
If you're going to push people to be more specific you should begin by getting your specific facts right. You compare the top MARGINAL income tax rate in Ontario (46%) with the AVERAGE tax rate on all income sources in the United States. That's apples and oranges. A quick check of your links and google reveals that (a)your own website shows that capital gains and income from financial assets get taxed at a lower marginal rate in Canada, and (b)the US top marginal tax rate is in fact 36% federally and as high as 10% in some states (like California). This is beyond the elementary mistake of confusing average and marginal tax rates.

You may also want to look at the data on income inequality, here's one example:
http://emlab.berkeley.edu/users/saez/saez-veallAER05canada.pdf

The increase in income inequality, particularly the income share of the top 1%, has been almost as large in Canada as the US. We began at a lower level of inequality, and the trend in Canada does not owe as much to regressive tax reform, but the fact remains that a tiny minority is benefitting disproportionately from economic growth.

Please try to do more research for your next article so as not to misinform the public. Canada is different but we have massive income inequality, it has grown substantially, and our tax code is not nearly as progressive as it could be and much closer to the US than you realize.
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John Laforet
04:28 PM on 10/18/2011
The top one percent is an entirely arbitrary line drawn in the sand. If the issue for Occupy Toronto or Occupy Wall Street folks is the lower rates of taxation on income from capital gains and financial instruments (things like dividends and interest) then that should be articulated.

That said, think of the consequences of taxing those differently on seniors who don't have pensions and rely on dividend income or interest to prevent them from depleting their capital while sustaining themselves.

Income inequality when comparing different levels of responsibilities and positions is also a classic comparison of apples to oranges. If the issue is that people doing the same job have grossly different pay scales for compatible work, fine -- you've got a point that clearly needs a solution and can be easily addressed by determining why and how that happened.

If the issue is you don't like how many multiples that Radiologist at Sick Kids makes compared to the nurse, that's an entirely different topic, as would be the difference between the NDP Leader's salary and a constituency assistant. At one point is it the right of the institutions whose budget it is to determine what level of income inequality is allowable, providing they are compiling with Canada's labour laws?

What do you think is a reasonable pay scale difference between a radiologist who is part of the hated 1% and a nurse who is part of the 99%?

What is your ideal level of income inequality?
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cwebster
predominantly exasperated
06:43 PM on 10/18/2011
I think that CEO pay is way over the top. No CEO should be making more than 40X the average salary of his/her employees...and that figure should include perks and benefits. When I worked at CIBC, the boss got paid 8 million one year...the average wage for the rest of us was around 30,000. He was not worth 266 times the average wage.
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Doctor Nick
Hi, everybody!
07:29 PM on 10/18/2011
You did not address any of my points but I will respond to yours.
First the main issue people seem to have is that income gains have accrued disproportionately to the richest. The particular line may be arbitrary but any measure of inequality is going to show a significant increase (I won't bore you with Lorenz curves crossing or first order stochastic dominance). More importantly real income gains have been zero or negative for the bottom half of the income distribution. Taxation policy is complicated - as demonstrated by your own difficulties stating understanding the issues (for example, changing the top marginal tax rate on capital income does not mean that poor seniors relying on pensions or asset income will be gravely affected, again remember marginal is not the same as average!) - and to expect a bunch of people upset at widening inequality to provide the same type of analysis the world's top public economics experts (like Emmanuel Saez or people working at the Center for Budget Priorities, or in Canada the CCPA) is unnecessary and a bit of a straw man.

On the issue of income inequality and redistribution through taxation and spending, we have some evidence that more progressive tax systems lead to greater happiness:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110906152459.htm
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03:03 PM on 10/18/2011
I really don't know what these protesters want. Neither Canadian banks nor the Canadian government are blamed for the past financial crisis and recession. There was a bail-out of sorts when the government bought distressed assets from the banks, but the banks didn't request it and it wasn't really necessary. Besides the government stands to make a profit from it. People were not foreclosed on in great numbers. Employment and GDP are rising. We do not have near the income inequality as the U.S.

So far as I can tell, the protesters just needed the practice.
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John Laforet
03:58 PM on 10/18/2011
Lots of good points raised BlackRabbit. I myself am not opposed to protesters, in fact I admire anyone who takes such a strong public stand. At the same time, I do think fact based grievances and demands are important. Occupy Toronto is an impressive thing in it's own right, it just needs to rise to the occasion it's created for itself.

On the troubled assets, in many ways that was more a trade than a bailout because it was bonds for other, perhaps riskier investments. I am with you though that the government has the potential to win on that deal, and it's also good news for those on the distressed side of the asset because something tells me the government is a less aggressive collector than the banks would be.
06:16 PM on 10/18/2011
John, I think your missing something here. I don't think people supporting this movement begrudge people earning a top salary. The problem lies in the concentration of wealth. Wall Street is just the symbol of the peoples grievences. Incredibly obscene amounts of money are being made these days by a fortunate few by shuffling money back and forth, and pure speculation while creating nothing for the common good. Please check out this link. I would be interested in your thoughts. .http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#44928287
06:22 PM on 10/18/2011
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#44928287
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Blodo
Time to build a better world
07:10 PM on 10/30/2011
I agree with most of what you said, except for a couple of points. First, Canadian banks found themselves in a liquidity crunch due to the ripple effect from the global financial crisis. At that point, as would be expected, the feds stepped in as a liquidity backstop in exchange for relatively sound bank paper - in the same way we would expect provinces to step in if credit unions were in a liquidity crisis.

Second point...While we are not in a dire a situation as the US, the underlying principle is the same. As wealth becomes increasingly concentrated in a few hands, democracy itself become subverted. The cost of political campaigning or the ability to influence the election of specific individuals or, once elected, the policies of our representatives serves to undercut the concept of "one-person-one-vote".

This becomes especially worrisome under our current "first past the post" system which can create the current situation where total legislative and executive power is now vested in a group that had the support of a relatively small percentage of the electorate. And I would be saying exactly the same thing regardless of which party was in power at this moment.

So it's not just a question of who's rich and who's not. It also speaks to the nature of democracy and how much relative influence the BlackRabbit's and Blodo's and all the rest have on the direction our country is taking.