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The Week in Review: Tom Flanagan, Child Porn, and Questions We Don't Want to Hear

Posted: 03/02/2013 9:55 pm

This week was spent re-evaluating and debating where the legal balance should be struck between protecting Canadians from harm and protecting Canadians' civil liberties. No, it wasn't only the Supreme Court's Whatcott decision -- which upheld most of the hate crime portions of Saskatchewan's Human Rights Code -- that sparked conversation (and disappointment for libertarians like me) on Wednesday. The arguments got far more heated the next day in the wake of a YouTube video showing academic Tom Flanagan telling a University of Lethbridge audience that the viewing of child pornography does not "harm another person," and that he "has some grave doubts about putting people in jail because of their taste in pictures."

As a result of the comments, Flanagan was quickly dropped from his CBC gig, disowned by the Alberta Wildrose Party, denounced by the Prime Minister's spokesperson and his long-time employer the University of Calgary (which also chose the moment to publicly announce, for the first time, Flanagan's impending spring retirement) and dumped from the upcoming program of the conservative Manning Centre's Networking Conference.

Is it a surprise that remarks that could be (and certainly have been) read as showing a failure to appreciate the profound, wide-ranging and heart-breaking damage done by child pornography would cause outrage? Perhaps not -- but frustrating still that the whole affair has been largely cast simplistically as Flanagan revealing himself to be "okay with child porn," when in fact, as inelegantly as he may have gone about it, Flanagan seemed to be trying to get at a legitimate question: Is criminalizing the act of viewing evidence, after the fact, of a disgusting crime a reasonable curtailment of freedom expression?

Obviously, the reaction to Flanagan's words gives a pretty good indication of where most Canadians would come down on the question, but that doesn't mean it isn't one worth asking and thinking about. Consider: We didn't prosecute people who took to the Internet to watch the repugnant snuff video alleged to be at the heart of the Luka Magnotta murder case, in which a man is apparently seen killing, dismembering, violating and doing otherwise unspeakable things to another man. We prosecuted Luke Magnotta.

In the United States, the Supreme Court struck down on free expression grounds a federal ban on "virtual" child pornography (material depicting images that looked like children engaged in sexual actions, but which involved no real children), suggesting that for the highest court in the land of one major democracy, at least, the ill effects of viewing child pornography alone are not enough to warrant censorship -- it's the actual abuse of children that justifies criminalizing the material. In other words, you can ban bad deeds, but not words (or pictures) that could simply lead to them.

Is this what Tom Flanagan meant by his remarks on Wednesday? I don't know. As the National Post's Jonathan Kay points out, Flanagan's off-the-cuff answer to a question from the audience at a live speaking event was too truncated and lacking in context and preparation for us to be able to tell for sure. (Kay says, "In such situations, people express themselves in all sorts of clumsy, and sometimes bizarre ways," and then goes on to give his own embarrassing experience of repeatedly mistakenly calling "Osama" "Obama" during public speaking events as an example.) But the point is that Flanagan's words could be read as a maladroit expression for what is nonetheless -- as Flanagan's fellow U of C professor Barry Cooper put it -- a defensible position.

It would be a shame if the ultimate outcome of the incident were to lead the country further down the path the Whatcott decision set us on: making the debating of society's most sensitive and difficult subjects off limits.

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This week was spent re-evaluating and debating where the legal balance should be struck between protecting Canadians from harm and protecting Canadians' civil liberties. No, it wasn't only the Supreme...
This week was spent re-evaluating and debating where the legal balance should be struck between protecting Canadians from harm and protecting Canadians' civil liberties. No, it wasn't only the Supreme...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jimboy71
Hen Diapheron Heautoi
10:57 AM on 03/06/2013
A total failure to grasp the issue. The question isn't about viewing. It's about possessing. The possession of the abhorrent criminal proceeds which are either paid or bartered for is illegal. As well it needs to be, with the harshest possible sentences.

The ideological noodling engaged in here is dangerous. The blind allegiance to a simplisitc notion of speech rights is a special kind of nonsense.
03:44 PM on 03/04/2013
We are Canadians, these are our values and we have no desire to model our laws on US laws.
Canadian support for criminalizing child pornography, including this Canadian is because we understand what pedophilia is, how it works and what the major incitement is to them acting out their desire for small children.
There are many experts in Canada that you can talk to and they are going to tell you that the viewing and availability of child pornography feeds into their desire for children and is an incitement for them to act upon it.
Pedophiles represent a real and constant danger to children: they don't stand out until caught, they are often well hidden in respectable neighbourhoods, jobs that place them close to children and even marriages. They are the one's attracted to child pornography and they are the ones willing to take the risk of paying to see it or buying it on the black market because it feeds their unhealthy desire for children and feeds their fantasy that they just love children.
That's the majority of pedophiles but then there is another class of pedophile, they do more than molest them, they hold them captive, torture them and then kill them. Do you have children, can you imagine a defenseless child in that situation? Maybe you need to get past your Libertarianism long enough to think this through.
Donna Meness
www.findmaisyandshannon.com
12:02 PM on 03/04/2013
Good Try framing his belief & acknowleged practices..as MAN BOY LOVE advocates & displays "for the subscriber" ..

In general..to make childsex to depicted childabuse is criminal, child rape is evil

so is:

pretending to make "adults" depicted as children for childsex is criminal;

tapes of hearing children being raped is criminal;

looking at children being raped is criminal;

having children rape other children for your pleasure also criminal;

watching others rape children is criminal;

paying for & directing childrape by website/ computer means is criminal;

raping children is evil..in EVERY context..
11:33 AM on 03/04/2013
It's nice to see someone actually admit that hate speech and child pornography laws actually exist for similar reasons, and the Conservative government is being hypocritical for how quickly they attacked Tom Flanagan on his remarks, when at the same time they weaken laws designed to limit the harm of hate speech.

It's disappointing that the argument is against restricting both of those, however.

Sadly, in both cases the victims are those who are less powerful, either children or social minorities, though only one of those categories seems to be considered worth protecting. It's hard for anyone with power to see why that would be needed, but that doesn't change the necessity.
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Turdinthepunchbowl
Just say no, to the opiate of the masses.
03:27 PM on 03/04/2013
I thought I was the only one who saw the irony...and hypocrisy.
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jarnakak
fava beans and sweet breads are for sissies
11:24 AM on 03/04/2013
as i understand the context to be, flanagan was asked to clarify a statement he had made earlier regarding civil liberties and child pornography thus prompting his ill-advised reply.

"...Flanagan seemed to be trying to get at a legitimate question: Is criminalizing the act of viewing evidence, after the fact, of a disgusting crime a reasonable curtailment of freedom expression?"

-i think a more focussed discourse can be had by recognizing the inherent political/social nature of an expression vs. personal indulgence that may be harmful to children and the vulnerable (or gotten by causing or having the potential to cause undue physical or psychological injury to someone). the original intent, as far as i can tell, of the notion of freedom of expression was political and social in nature; all else being subject to criminal or civil sanction (ie, in both senses of the word).

flanagan, holding such an office, is not precluded from being subject to criminal or civil sanction. the question then becomes: did what he said have academic merit or not?
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10:39 AM on 03/04/2013
People missed the real question is it illegal to watch any porn on a computer ? His choice of words when to a taboo subject ( the word Child ) should never of been used .
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Cael
08:51 AM on 03/04/2013
His comment, and how he said it shows where society and lawmakers are these days. What he said was the actual viewing of content does not harm that individual that views it. The problem with his comment also shows the state of society and lawmakers in general and that is the ability to only see what is right in front of you and not all that is around you.
He could not see the fact that viewing it creates demand and the more demand there is creates a need for more supply and it is that which harms people drastically.
People in society have stopped, in many cases, of seeing all the repercussions of an action.
Obviously the example shown by him is the worst of the worst, but we see this thought process way too often.
Decisions are made based on what people see in their little box and they do not step out to see the whole effect. Peoples opinions are also bias, what people want is for them to not be impacted and many don't care the about how laws and decision affect other people, and until people start caring about the global repercussions society will continue to regress back to Neanderthal man (Although some evidence may suggest they had a better sense of family and community than us.)
08:05 AM on 03/04/2013
Should we not hold those viewing child pornography accountable for failing to report a criminal act of abuse against a minor? Those that obtain child pornography are in possession of visual evidential proof of a crime that has been commited, if they do not respond by alerting authorities they themselves should be held responsible for their withholding of evidence proof and have failed (willingly there for becoming an accomplice to a criminal act) in the prevention of harm against another. To be a bystander and 5to do nothing while a crime or evidence of a crime becomes personal knowlege, is this not also considered an obstruction of justice?
01:25 PM on 03/04/2013
So, if you look at a naked picture of young person online, are you guilty? Sure, some pictures are obviously a child and break the law, but I certainly couldn't swear that every person I saw naked on a screen at any time was 17 or 19 or 21.
If you see a movie about teens and there is a nude shot in it, are we guilty because while the actor may be 20, the movie is about youth sex so we are, so to speak, deliberately seeing youth sex.
My point is that you make it seem black and white, and the realities are more complex than that. It scares me to think you would authorize government to have incredibly heavy handed powers and repressing sex works really, really well.
I know your intention is good, but I think the ramifications of your making anyone who fails to report a crime as a criminal would be difficult at best, hugely abusive of power and freedom at worst.
Think McCarthyism along a sexual line.
06:45 PM on 03/04/2013
Perhaps if you were concerned at all about the actual age of the "child or minor" you were viewing, you would want to establish that you are not viewing abuse or down loading "child pornographic images". You would be certainly aghast and sufficiently alarmed that you would take appropriate action by alerting authorities of your concern for possible violations of criminal acts of abuse or not and be found guilty of possession of "child pornography".

As it stands, "child pronography" is a crimnal offense!
08:40 PM on 03/05/2013
Obviously you hae no idea of what you speak, if your biggest problem is determining if the the child is 17 or 20, do you have a problem differentiating between a child aged 5 or 6 or 7 et al with an adult? That is also child sexual abuse and most of child porn. Your concern is about the civil rights of an adult who would watch this activity. Your argument is sophistry at its worst. Your argument is contrived. You have the emotional intelligence of an ant, and you are probably a Conservative supporter. Are you trying to shield the connection between Harper and Flanagan? The federal government for your information is trying to pass legislation entitled something to the effect of The Protection of Children from Internet Predators Act, as an amendment to the Criminal Code..
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
russell merifield
07:20 AM on 03/04/2013
The real issue is that Flanagan, Barry Cooper Ezra Levant etc are the voice of the Harper Government. And we know that in Harper, no-one speaks without checking first
08:53 PM on 03/03/2013
These people, along with this Blog, try to stand for free speech, but as soon as someone disagrees or makes a comment that the writer doesn't like they get blocked. That's censorship plain and simple! As for Flanigan, I'm sure he's failed many papers for poor choice of words so I don't buy that as an excuse not to mention he made the same comments in 2009!
08:26 PM on 03/03/2013
Comparing what Flanagan said to virtual child pornography is not a good comparison. It's hard to argue that society benefits from giving legal rights to digital creations, no matter how offensive.

So the statement, "suggesting that for the highest court in the land of one major democracy, at least, the ill effects of viewing child pornography alone are not enough to warrant censorship -- " is inaccurate. What the U.S. Supreme court is actually saying is the ill effects of viewing - virtual - child pornography alone is not enough to warrant censorship. It's not saying anything about anything involving real children.
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Simon Wagstaff
Friday the 13th comes on a Wednesday this month
06:30 PM on 03/03/2013
Tom Flanagan and his neo-con fellows want to be able to do whatever they think is right... rather arrogant of them actually to do so... but this very arrogance comes out in spades with this topic... ans is the root of the issue... as they are so focused on their own rights they selfishly forget about the rights of others, in this case the rights of the children being abused...
05:37 PM on 03/03/2013
There is no defence here because viewing such pictures is not a victimless crime as Flanagan proposes or suggests. Many of these "pictures" as he refers to them are depictions of the abominable act of abusing innocent children. And what Flanagan should have addressed is why he kept receiving the man-boy love newsletter for TWO YEARS!!
01:39 PM on 03/04/2013
I somehow have the feeling that his revelation was of a preemptive nature - sorry, Mr. Flanagan, it sounds just as bad coming from you as from an investigative reporter.
05:13 PM on 03/03/2013
I will ask this question another way - would Mr. Flanagan, supposing that HE was the victim of a sexual assault, find it acceptable for others to be able to view the full act online as (sick) entertainment? Would he not feel revictimized?
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Simon Wagstaff
Friday the 13th comes on a Wednesday this month
06:23 PM on 03/03/2013
bingo, well said!
08:25 PM on 03/03/2013
An important part of academic debate is to keep it objective.
09:14 PM on 03/03/2013
And how is my alternative take on this situatiion in any way less "objective' than Mr. Flanagan's? Are you saying that he, objectively, would not be bothered by becoming the viewed rather than the viewer?
11:45 AM on 03/05/2013
Tell that to Holly Jones' parents.
I dare you.
04:34 PM on 03/03/2013
What Flannagan and those who support his argument are basically saying is that the *civil liberties* of the *individual* [and yes, Virginia, even abominations like sex predators] trump the *human rights* of the whole [society's children] to be protected from said predation.
08:22 PM on 03/03/2013
No, I think that's just you putting words into other people's mouths.
01:22 PM on 03/04/2013
with all due respect, that is me relaying what Flanagan writes about in his academic work. I don't mean to say that he writes about child porn: I mean to say that according to Flanagan's very own intellectual philosophy, which he has published at length, holds the rights of the individual as sacrosanct, to be protected at almost any cost. I do not mean to imply that Flanagan is a pedophile or supports the sexual abuse of childre. He does tend, however, to view the struggles and suffering of real live people as abstracted "externalities" in his academic work and in his public appearances - as the wealth of empirical evidence demonstrates.