Apr 27, 2014 at 13:12:27
“We agree on the problem (mostly) - that the TFWP is designed to abuse and exploit workers. It is part of a global shift towards temporary immigration that is being organized at the United Nations level. Most countries in the world are moving towards guest worker program.
But its the solution we differ on. If we shut down the TFWP, hundreds of thousands of migrants in the country will be deported. And other racialized and poor migrants will not be able to come here.
So we need a third way. Short term solution: change provincial and federal laws that allow migrant workers to be treated badly. Mid-term: Give full immigration status to those here. Long-term: Create a federal workers program that is not employer dependent, and does not discriminate on the basis of skills.”
Apr 27, 2014 at 13:07:58
“First - as I explain - in many cases the LMOs are valid - that is there weren't 'Canadians' willing to do the job. But migrant workers are still being abused and exploited. Why do you refuse to care about them but are concerned about a few Canadians (all white) who were fired?
Second - as I show - there are over a million unemployed Canadians above and beyond migrant workers - Why is migrant workers possibly replacing Canadians - the key media obsession when trying to resolve unemployment. Why is this *the* story about unemployment in Canada?
Third - We heard a few examples in the media of jobs being replaced - but where was the national attention when workers are dying in farms? Why is there no inquiry on migrant workers being assaulted but McDonalds is now under investigation?
Finally - What is the avenue for poor and working class migrants to come to Canada permanently - and if there isn't one then why are you angry when people come in temporarily?”
DavidRothbauer on Apr 27, 2014 at 15:49:29
“First, second, and third are outside the purview of this discussion.
The last point. First off, I'm not angry.
My objection is that a resident of Canada, someone who was born here, or who has done the work to come here legally, who has laid down roots in their community should have first pick of jobs.
I've explained to you why I think that should be....in that it would leave Canadians unemployed, drawing on social welfare, and perhaps losing their homes, and their savings.
Why do you think that that migrants should have the opportunity to displace working Canadians?
As stated, I've no objection to temporary workers coming in and taking jobs that can't be filled.”
Apr 27, 2014 at 13:02:28
“I dont believe that Canadian workers see workers from around the world as people they are competing with. People are people. Everyone deserves dignity. Why are you dividing people on the basis of where they are born?”
Karen Dedosenco on Apr 28, 2014 at 10:03:59
“Syed, why are confusing temporary foreign workers with immigrants? The TFW program is not fostering discrimination of where you were born, it is encouraging discrimination against Canadians no matter where they were born.”
Naturally Skeptical on Apr 27, 2014 at 13:26:41
“Syed, I would respectfully suggest that you get away from the keyboard and talk to Canadian workers. If you don't think that we see TFWs as competition then you really do need to get to know the lay of the land. The "dividing" is a natural division - those who are Canadian and deserve first crack at employment and everybody else who does not deserve first crack at employment within Canada.”
Apr 25, 2014 at 16:50:11
“Then why not argue against removing wage discrimination rather than asking for the program to be closed. Because in effect asking for the program to shut down -- is excluding racialized people from rights and benefits.”
Edgar Cudmore on Apr 28, 2014 at 10:15:09
“There is a subset of jobs in the economy where the wage you would have to offer to get a Canadian (with all the advantages/rights of a Canadian) to do it is higher than the maximum the company can offer and remain in business. For example, if you are tough enough to work seasonal agriculture you could make far more (doing less) in construction. But there is no way farms can pay construction wages to its workers and expect to sell their produce. That is the reason the TFW program was created. To allow companies to hire TFWs at wages that are below what would be required to hire Canadians. If you removed the price discrimination the companies would no longer find any advantage in the program. The whole point of the program (from the companies perspective) is the wage discrimination.”
bumbaclaude on Apr 26, 2014 at 20:15:51
“Since "Honest" Steve we have had a reduction of 50% of landed immigrants and are mostly whites while TFW have doubled and are mostly non white so you agree? GET IT?”
AndrewBud on Apr 26, 2014 at 12:51:44
“I live in a small town with unemployment over 12% due to 3 call centers and a manufacturing job leaving our city. I see no reason for TFW's when you have 10,000 people in one small town willing to take any job. When we have a true labor shortage and our Canadian unemployment rate is low the TFW program would make sense.”
Naturally Skeptical on Apr 25, 2014 at 19:09:12
“No, you are wrong. We should be employing Canadians first and only if we have full or nearly full employment should we be looking at foreign labour. Syed, you appear to have an agenda which is detrimental to Canadian workers.”
Apr 25, 2014 at 16:47:08
“If it was protectionism - we would be opposed to workers from eastern Canada going to the West. This is protectionism - against racialized people without status.”
Cementhead234576454 on Apr 25, 2014 at 19:11:52
“No. It isn't. No matter how you want to word it.”
Naturally Skeptical on Apr 25, 2014 at 17:27:12
“Sorry, but no. I cannot agree with that, at all. Protectionism can be national. This has nothing to do with race. I wish you would not try to turn a protective sentiment (protecting Canadian workers) into something racial.”
Apr 25, 2014 at 16:41:43
“I am actually saying that the program is being used as it is intended. Not illegally. I am saying that the entire immigration system - not just in Canada but around the world - is moving towards temporary migration.
Advertised rules about finding 'Canadians' to do the job first aren't applied because the LMOs are processed so fast. But more importantly --- Why is that the rule? Why shouldn't migrant workers get jobs?
I mean -- we do not react as vehemently when temp agency workers replaced unionized, permanent jobs; we do not complain when young workers replace old ones; we do not complain when people across from Canada move to Alberta to get jobs. This isn't about replacing local workers -- this is about xenophobia.”
Naturally Skeptical on Apr 25, 2014 at 19:12:25
“It is NOT about xenophobia. Please stop saying that it is xenophobia. It is simply a matter of protecting Canadians from the influx of foreign workers whose presence is allowing employers to lower wages.”
DavidRothbauer on Apr 25, 2014 at 17:51:35
“The TFW program is being abused, contrary to the law. Not by everyone, but by enough people to catch the attention of the media.
You ask why migrant workers should be considered for jobs along with Canadians.
Simple answer to that...why on earth would a government allow people to come to Canada to fill a position when it would cause a Canadian who wants that job, and has the requisite qualifications to be unemployed?
It doesn't make sense....that Canadian then draws off of our social welfare system, perhaps losing their home, and their savings, and their ability to contribute to their community.
You're calling this xenophobia is utterly ridiculous. Xenophobia is fear and hatred of outsiders. Canadians have welcomed immigrants with open arms.
You're mistaking people's loathing of the TFW program for racism.
There is nothing racist about wanting to ensure that Canadians, or those granted permanent resident status, who want to work aren't left jobless by someone from out of the country.
If you're a migrant worker, and you want to work in Canada, in a job that you have to compete with residents for...immigrate here, earn the right to work legally...then we won't have a problem.
Come here with the express purpose of working in a position that a Canadian has lost to you...then yes....most of us have a problem with that.”
Apr 25, 2014 at 16:36:07
“That's incorrect. The TFWP ties workers to a single employers, generates abuse from recruiters and because of policy flaws in provincial legislation allows workers to be exploited. The program, and the entire immigration system are flawed. That's the real target, not the actual workers in it.”
Apr 25, 2014 at 16:34:32
“No - But McDonalds makes up a very small portion of the TFWP. About 3,000 workers. Some of whom are being paid equivalent wages as others.
If we are talking about 'free markets' - then any corporate subsidy, and any limitation on labour mobility is what skews the market. Migrant workers are tied to a single employer, unable to changes job - that's what causes abuse.
Free market is not the panacea. We need to curb the abuses in the TFWP - not by kicking out migrant workers, but by ensuring they have full immigration status.”
Apr 25, 2014 at 16:32:30
“As I said above - there aren't 300,000 low-waged temporary foreign workers - the real numbers are closer to 76,000 - 230,000. Likely closer to 76,000 rather than 230,000 because the larger number includes partners of high skilled workers.
Second point - yes employers are using the TFWP to pay lower wages. But - they are also arguing for lower wages for citizen workers. So getting rid of TFWP would not mean higher wages. We need to curb employer abuse, raise minimum standards for all, and ensure immigration status for migrant workers so they cannot be abused.”
3manquartet on Apr 30, 2014 at 09:01:13
“If companies had to face higher wages or not enough workers, the wages will rise. With TFW, they do not.”
Jebus Lives on Apr 27, 2014 at 19:07:02
“Simple supply and demand
By increasing the labour pool, the TFWP decreases the cost of labour.
Getting rid of the TFWP would result in less labour being available, hence the cost of labour would increase.”
Naturally Skeptical on Apr 25, 2014 at 19:10:42
“Actually, getting rid of TFWs would give Canadians the bargaining power we need. As long as we have TFWs, we Canadians have no bargaining power since employers can hire TFWs on the cheap.”
uaquin on Apr 25, 2014 at 16:50:13
“They are using TFW TOO make the argument for low wages. By setting wages so low as to drive away Canadian workers, they make some sideways case for TFW.
Sorry, until there is less than 4% unemployment, there should be NO TFW visas period. Employers will just have to pay Canadians what is necessary to fill the jobs.”
Dec 18, 2012 at 17:54:33
“If migrant workers are excluded today from E.I. special benefits, Canadian citizens will follow tomorrow. Have you seen what has already happened to the state of E.I. - so many people are already excluded. This is a slippery slope and its about where people were born or what colour their passport is - it is about a government agenda to rip money off from migrants and give it to their buddies.”
Nov 13, 2012 at 17:56:35
“Migrant workers pay employment insurance, income tax, hst, cpp, child tax benefits and more. Yet most of them don't get any of these benefits. There are about 300,000 temporary workers in Canada, and another 500,000 or so undocumented workers - they are paying taxes - but not getting services. If somehow, those people were all deported, the social services most Canadians enjoy - subsidized healthcare, electricity, roads, schools, etc, etc, - may just collapse. Think about that.”
Ian Nolan on Nov 14, 2012 at 12:46:57
“What's an "undocumented worker" and why would they be paying taxes?”
Nov 13, 2012 at 17:52:47
“There are many many migrant work programs and they all have different limitations. Some are for 8 months, other are for four years, and others are for longer or shorter. Until the 1950s, people that came to Canada got full citizenship basically when they arrived - this has been shut down and now people are brought in as temporary workers. It serves no one's interest to force the workers to leave after a certain time. It means the employers have to re-train a new workforce every few years, and workers are less able to participate fully in communities. Temp jobs are a problem in every sector.”
Nov 13, 2012 at 17:49:26
“Canada has made it increasingly difficult for people to come in through the points system. Right now the only way you can apply to immigrate from outside the country is either as a spouse or as an entrepreneur - all other programs have been shut down since June. On the other hand, over 300,000 people are in the labour markets as "temporary workers". People that would have come in as points-system immigrants (or the equivalent) 100 or even 50 or 20 years ago - are now coming in as temp workers.”
SoakerCity on Nov 13, 2012 at 23:05:18
“Canada does not need immigrants. We need to grow our own families with Canadian values, and keep a slowly growing population. I have absolutely no interest in rapidly growing our population so that we can be overpopulated hellholes like the rest of the world.”
bob mc on Nov 13, 2012 at 21:04:11
“That's a shame, maybe it is because the temp workers abused the Canadian system and are now crying foul. My sympathy goes out to the guy who lost his leg but not to all the people trying to get into Canada and take advantage of what many workers in the past have toiled for and are now not receiving benefits of "their" actual work whereas many of the so called new immigrants are getting benefits without working. How is it that someone from another country newly arrived is able to go on disability without ever having worked here, answer please. Your is ok and it is not ok. There are seniors who actually worked all their lives receiving less than newly arrives and that is not fair at all please read up more on your research before publishing garbage that people feel not so inclined to sympathize with.”
Whitey McWhite on Nov 13, 2012 at 19:30:54
“Because not everyone sees Canada doubling up its population as a good thing. Just because the third world sees no benefit in stabilizing it's population doesn't mean we shouldn't in Canada. You know why most of the third world is a dump? Too many people! Just because people want to come here doesn't mean it's our duty to take them. Temp workers know they are temp you cannot expect that to automatically change once you get here. Would you rather be like the states where millions of people ignore the immigration laws and enter and exit the country as they see fit. If i want to move to Jamaica I need to get a visa (usually with a job already lined up unlike here) it is completely up to the local government to accept or reject that request. More immigrants = lower wages and higher property values. The rich people who run Canada love this because they save money on wages and developer donations are the life blood of municipal politics.”
Nov 13, 2012 at 11:00:44
“For sure. Multinational corporations and recruiters here and across the world are colluding to ensure that workers (of any citizenship) don't get decent jobs, with safety or protections. The problem is not Canadian workers against migrant workers fighting for jobs, its the laws that force people into these positions and the corporations that take advantage of them.”
Larry Motuz on Nov 13, 2012 at 22:41:47
“I've fanned you, and I hope to 'hear' more from you in future. If there are a thousand ways to catch the attention of Canadians, use every one of them.
People will listen, but for them to hear requires your voice...not alone, but with others.