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Motion 312: If You're An Old White Guy, I Don't Want to Hear IIt

Posted: 09/28/2012 12:26 pm

There has been a lot of indignation and distress over Stephen Woodworth's Private Member Bill, Motion 312. There is indeed a lot to be upset over, although the recent call for Rona Ambrose's resignation is both overblown and misplaced. Overblown because we were all fully aware of her anti-choice stance to begin with, and misplaced because there should have been the same level of outrage at her appointment as Minister for Status of Women.

Considering the MPs were free to vote their conscience, what exactly did we expect her to do? Now, don't get me wrong, it was preposterous to put a staunch anti-choicer as the Minister for Status of Women. Moreover, regardless of the cantankerous commentary emanating from the tweets of Andrew Coyne, it should be a given that the Minister for Status of Women have the best interest of women's rights in her mind when voting on potential legislation looking to curtail the very basic rights our mothers and grandmothers fought for.

Nevertheless, the general public has no authority to arbitrarily call for the resignation of a democratically elected Member of Parliament merely because we do not care for the way she voted. The people of Edmonton voted Ambrose in, and it is up to them to vote her out.

What I find to be even more perplexing than Ambrose voting against the constituency of her ministry, is the pervasiveness of uninformed ideological rhetoric that has plagued the discourse of this country.

Here's an age old riddle for you: how many old white guys does it take to editorialize on a subject that has to do solely with a woman's most intimate choice in life? Well, if you're the National Post, then four. Kelly MacParland, Jonathan Kay, Andrew Coyne, and Chris Selley have all opined in one form or another on the limits -- or the right to debate the limits -- that the legislature places on a woman's reproductive rights.

Just a little friendly advice to the National Post: perhaps Postmedia wouldn't be hemorrhaging so much money if it spruced up its editorial board a little bit to reflect the reality of Canada's demographic. You know, maybe get some colour, ovaries and youth into the mix of old white men professing emblematic old white men perspectives. It's just a proposal; after all, you might even finally crack into that segment of the population with the country's foremost purchasing power -- gasp -- the 18-40 year old female base.

The outrage radiating from the old white men commentariat ranges from "well, why can't we have this debate?" to "fetuses are people too, and they have rights just like you and me." Sure, I suppose we could very well have this debate. If a strictly scientific, objective debate about the inception of life is to be had, then it is not an appalling conversation to partake in.

The caveat of course being that the very men and women demanding for this alleged scientific dispute to take place could not pass a rudimentary biology class if their third trimester fetus depended on it. This is because the very notion of "life" itself is an arbitrary concept. I could get into an entire discussion here about prions and viruses but I'm afraid it would just result in the furrowing of brows of the defenders of the unborn in the vain attempt to appreciate millions of years of evolutionary progress.

This is precisely why the legal and medical community has defined life in the only way it knew how: when the fetus was a completely separate entity from the mother. Yes, I understand that an eight-month fetus feels every bit a human being as a fully birthed child. However, if scientific and medical definitions are what the anti-choicers want to stick to, then in every sense of the term the fetus would be considered a parasite, and I'm sure there are very few people of the fighting-for-the-fetus population that would be comfortable with that sort of label.

I suppose the real predicament the Canadian people have found themselves in is that we tend to elect MPs that have virtually no scientific understanding of the world, as we know it. This is especially true of the Conservative Party, considering creationist Science Ministers tend to find their way into policy shaping roles.

Professor Timothy Caulfield has written extensively on the subject of political ideology overshadowing and ultimately hijacking any purposeful debate on scientific issues such as embryonic research in making it all about the moral status of the embryo. Indeed, the very same rhetoric that is being applied to save the country of the alleged 33-week fetus massacre was prevalent during the debate surrounding human embryonic stem cell research. My personal beloved moment during this time was when Jason Kenney referred to a 14-day-old embryo as a tautological human being

What the anti-choice caucus fails to mention -- presumably because they are either too obtuse or too indolent to look up the regulatory framework on the issue -- is that professional guidelines, (namely, section 17 of the Canadian Medical Association Code of Ethics), currently mandate that physicians always maintain the right to refuse performing any medical procedure as they see fit.

So, perhaps the outlandish depiction of a woman casually walking into her doctor's office and whimsically opting to terminate her pregnancy at 30 weeks can be attenuated to reflect the regulatory reality.

But then what would the old white men feign outrage over?

 

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There has been a lot of indignation and distress over Stephen Woodworth's Private Member Bill, Motion 312. There is indeed a lot to be upset over, although the recent call for Rona Ambrose's resignati...
There has been a lot of indignation and distress over Stephen Woodworth's Private Member Bill, Motion 312. There is indeed a lot to be upset over, although the recent call for Rona Ambrose's resignati...
 
 
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12:28 PM on 10/07/2012
Before the vote on Motion 312, I highly doubt that most people even knew that Rona Ambrose was the Minister of Status of Women, and hardly anybody would have known she was anti-choice. The portfolio is a minor sideline one for the gov't, since Ambrose is primarily the Minister of Public Works and Government Service. The author provides no arguments for her assertion that "the general public has no authority to arbitrarily call for the resignation of a democratically elected Member of Parliament merely because we do not care for the way she voted." Of course the public has every right to do just that! - and in fact should and must do so when a Minister or MP shows a dereliction of duty or commits a major error that undermines their role, which is what Ambrose has done. Further, the people of Edmonton did not elect her to a Ministerial role, only to Parliament, and she should be sent to the backbenches. The author confuses Ambrose's MP status with her Ministerial role, but no-one was demanding that she quit Parliament entirely, only that she resign as Status of Women minister and return to the backbenches.
12:29 PM on 10/01/2012
According to this article it does not seem to matter what my views are, no matter how progressive or thoughtful....I'm just an old white guy whose opinion does not matter!
02:17 PM on 10/01/2012
no, the term is a euphemism for outdated opinions looking to preserve the patriarchal structure of society.
09:02 PM on 09/30/2012
great article. people are getting too wrapped up in the term "old white guy". the point of the article is that there are too many "old white guy" opinions in papers like the post, and the general media and not enough from women on this issue, which affects only women.
08:53 PM on 09/30/2012
amazing. we would never tolerate a bunch of white people acting like they are an authority figure on immigrant issues, so why tolerate men trying to legislate on women's issues?
paintitblacker
shit happens life goes on
01:14 PM on 09/30/2012
reprductive rights are individual rights, also plese note I am an old white guy, and margret sanger was right
09:45 PM on 09/29/2012
I am a middle-aged woman of colour and I agree with the "old white guys" at the National Post. So does my 18 year old daughter.

Canada is a democratic society and I thought that meant that we should have the right to discuss all issues, not just ones supported by the majority.

My other problem with this article is that one of those white guys (Andrew Coyne) is on record as being pro-choice. So why is he defending this discussion? The author believes the reason to be that he is old, white and male. Andrew Coyne is a staunch defender of democracy, and unlike the author, he defends the right of people with the opposite view to be heard. In a true democracy, all views should be heard, even if we do not agree with them.
08:54 PM on 09/30/2012
she has no problem with democracy. you don't understand the article.
11:24 PM on 09/30/2012
She does have a problem with who she calls "old white men" commenting on this issue. I would say that she does have a problem with democracy.
09:15 PM on 09/29/2012
funny, it's thanks to the old white guys that we have the western society. most inventions came from the 'old white guys', culture, music, etc. now everyone wants to dump it altogether. i wonder what we'll be after? all other parts of the world are nowhere near to what the 'old white guys' built over the centuries.
08:55 PM on 09/30/2012
old white guys built music and culture? what music are you talking about???

also, "old white guys" refers to a very specific type of "old white guy", for example, jack layton doesn't fit the description...
09:53 PM on 09/30/2012
'old white guys' is all the white men put together that actually over the centuries built the greatest civilization known to men.  now, bunch of ungry feminists and PC puppets trash the achievements of 'old white guys'.  and where are we going to end up?
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04:17 PM on 10/01/2012
Most importantly of all - Anglos have created that very document (Magna Carta) which represents the progressivism of human ideas of liberties and has been copied, passed down to every successive free civilization. No free nation exists that does not draw from the basic tenants of the Magna Carta.

Other under-developed nations just haven't put that much effort into assigning basic human liberties as the precepts of their constitutions. But you go ahead and be the "champion" of those corrupt policies...
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08:33 PM on 09/29/2012
Why is it always old-white-men who are UNPOPULAR with women, have problem with women making & maintaining control over their bodies? Peter MacKay is a Con, but he did not support the motion 312. The motion supporters were mainly men like Stephen Woodworth, Julian Fantino, Dean Del Mastro, and Jason Kenney who all are, well, not so prime chick-magnet materials by any standards...
06:48 PM on 09/29/2012
If you believe "old white men" should refrain from weighing in on legislation pertaining to women and reproductive rights, presumably it is because they are not women and can never be in jeopardy of bearing an unwanted child, should abortion be outlawed. I guess this means only children can weigh in on legislation pertaining to children, senior citizens on legislation pertaining to senior citizens, aboriginals on legistion pertaining to aboriginals and - well you get my point. To say "butt out it doesn't concern you cuz you're a man" is a weak argument.

Also, wherever you stand - pro-choice or prof-life (I much prefer the term "pro-life" to "anti-choice", an unnecessarily inflammatory descriptor) it is intellectually dishonest to say you think the entity a woman carries in her womb is not a human. It's a human. I know, I carried 3 of them. They were as human 10 minutes before birth as 10 minutes after. Stand and argue for your right to abort you human fetus (which by the way, you HAVE that right) but please, argue with some intellectual honesty on this matter. That is a human. Not a rock, not a puppy, not a blob of cells. If you wanted it and it was ripped from your womb, you would experience the loss, you'd never say "oh well, wasn't a human yet", you'd know, you'd grieve because you lost a son or a daughter.
08:56 PM on 09/30/2012
you know nothing of science. make arguments based on facts, not on feelings.
05:19 PM on 09/29/2012
People who seem so outraged by the "old white guys", I think are missing a huge point: Historically, old white guys have had far too much control and say over what women can or cannot do with their own bodies. And well, it's not just old white guys either. Old brown, black, yellow, purple, and green guys have all had far too much historical control over women's bodies.

What she is saying is that the ones who ought to discuss, pontificate, opine or rage about this touchy subject, ought to simply be more representative overall of the demographics of the country overall. And I think the old white guys can be included in the larger conversation overall. Humans just don't seem to be ready for open, frank discussions and discourse at this time in history. We white guys just can't seem to understand that we're always the ones who seem to have the loudest opinions, and need to make sure everybody hears them. We're not. Why is this so difficult to understand?

All you angry old white guys? Stop getting your panties all in a twist. It's embarrassing for us other old white guys who think you're acting all entitled and morally outraged. Admit it, some of you guys just want to take us back to that more simple time, you know, when men were men and women "knew their place"? Things were so much easier back then, weren't they?
04:32 PM on 09/29/2012
I agree with subject of the article. I do not agree with the use of the term "old white men". If another term was used, such as "old (insert colour or race here) men", there would be outrage due to perceived racism. But I guess for some people, they can't debate any issues without bringing race into the equation. And the use of the word "old" is used here to denote some sort of mental impairment which is even more insulting. The author seriously needs to grow up.
07:20 PM on 09/29/2012
Why? The issue was raised by an old white guy and the support for this bill and commentary for it is coming from a lot of old white guys. It's a valid argument. The make up of Canada is increasingly diverse and yet where are their voices?
As for old I think it's also a valid complaint. I'm a twenty something, this bill means a hell of a lot more to me than it does older generations. It's not that to do with intelligence it has to do with the priorities that come at different points in life.
Imagine hypothetically I was in a relationship with an old white man. If I got pregnant it could quite reasonably ruin my life while his life wouldn't. If I was talking about it with a group of my peers even if they didn't agree with me they could more easily understand my concerns than a group of his peers would.
02:59 PM on 09/29/2012
So let me get this straight: because I was born male and white in 1945, I'm automatically a bigoted, woman-hating anti-abortionist? If we can't have an adult conversation about serious issues without descending into personal attacks on all members of one group or another, bigotry will continue to thrive.
07:26 PM on 09/29/2012
That's not the point...I don't care what any man in parliament thinks about my right to choice. Pro or con it doesn't matter since they will never understand. When Stephen Woodworth gets pregnant I'll listen to him. Until then I won't. Frankly as someone who's never been pregnant I don't even think my opinion matters all that much. It's easier for me to understand how radically getting pregnant changes a woman's life but that doesn't give me the right to tell women, who's lives I do not live, what to do. That's why I'm pro-choice. I don't get to make decisions for other women and they don't get to make up choices for me.

At the end of the day men are never at risk of becoming pregnant against their will. They aren't left with months of carrying a fetus, their lives aren't at risk at any point. If they disappear they can ignore the whole thing if they'd prefer, women don't have that option. This matters to us in ways it can't to men until they start getting pregnant.
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01:18 PM on 09/29/2012
There are plenty of old white guys in the Democratic Party who oppose the "old white guys" in the GOP. Wonder how they feel about all their efforts being forgotten for this blanket racial categorization. How sad for them and all their work against the very things YOU'RE against.
07:28 PM on 09/29/2012
No it isn't. They don't matter. A man with an opinion about abortion is like a fish with a bicycle. Until it becomes a life or death matter for them their opinions are nice and abstract on both sides and they should stay out of the debate.
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12:16 PM on 09/30/2012
I don't understand your reply. My argument was that there are "old white guys" who are not conservative and who are fighting for women's right to choose. To which statement are you refuting???
02:21 PM on 10/01/2012
the term is a euphemism. it's a literary technique. please read a book.
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04:03 PM on 10/01/2012
That's really no excuse for abuse. Please use brain.
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Turdinthepunchbowl
Just say no, to the opiate of the masses.
09:07 AM on 09/29/2012
Excellent article (and I am a not-so-old white guy). A woman's body, a woman's choice...deal with it fellow members of the penis club. If your imagined creator wanted you to control what comes out of a woman's body he would have given you a uterus too, and not a fun stick. Think of it as God's plan; and apparently your God decided that reproductive rights are better served in the wombs of a woman than in the hands of a man. I hope the religious right and the Harper Christian Fundamentalist Conservatives continue this attack on the rights of women, for it will only prove to the women of Canada (who vote and pay taxes) that Harper and his Christian Fundamentalist Conservatives believe the rights of a few cells inside a woman (that in all likelihood will be aborted spontaneously by Harper's imagined loving creator) are not only morally equivalent to, but exceed the rights of a living, sentient, taxpaying and voting woman. This is the real morally abhorrent crime: Your actual living daughters, sisters, wives and mothers matter less to Harper and his Christian Fundamentalist Conservatives than a few non-sentient cells.
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02:43 PM on 09/29/2012
You are, by your own description, a "not-so-old white guy", yet soon you will be old, and lumped together, despite your progressive views, with those who want to control women due to age and race. Is that what you ALSO wish to defend?
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Turdinthepunchbowl
Just say no, to the opiate of the masses.
06:03 PM on 09/29/2012
Actually, this post was in response to another post (who identified himself as Old White Guy) concerning Rona Ambrose as Minister for Status of Women, where the commenter complained that there wasn't a Ministry for the Status of Men, so why do we need one for women.  This 'Old White Guy" [self identified himself as] felt he should be able to dictate what a woman does with her body.  He felt the assembly of a few cells inside a women was of equal, nay, greater moral status than a living, breathing, taxpaying, voting woman.  It is a fact that fundamentalist evangelicals are mostly  "pro-life" (actually pro-birth) and that they feel justified in equating a few cells with a grown woman is abhorrent.  And yes, as was explained in the post (Christian Fundamentalist Conservatives, "old white males,[as this person self-identified as]" overwhelmingly support the rights of the fetus over a woman. This should be the disturbing part, the moral equivalency of a fetus and a grown woman.