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Watching the Watchdog: Conrad Black and the Art of the Interview

Posted: 10/26/2012 5:04 pm


Tim Knight writes the regular media column, Watching the Watchdog, for HuffPost Canada.

It's all theatre, of course.

Conrad Black (a.k.a. Baron Black of Crossharbour, Knight of the Holy See, Privy Councillor, Officer of the Order of Canada [OC], and my fellow blogger at HuffPost Canada) was once the world's third biggest newspaper magnate.

Then he lost his newspapers and spent three years in an American prison for fraud and obstruction of justice. During that time he wrote a book, A Matter of Principle.

Now he's in England flogging the book. Highlight so far is his interview on the BBC TV program Newsnight with acerbic host Jeremy Paxman, once voted Britain's fourth scariest TV personality.

Talk about a clash of egos. Alpha bulls pawing the ground. Rampant testosterone. It's an interview for the ages. But don't judge it as anything other than theatre.

And when analyzing it, keep in mind that people like Black always believe attack to be the best form of defense. As a preacher friend once told me after a few glasses of the stuff that cheers: "when you get to the weak part of the sermon, say it loud and fast."

As in any theatre, look for storytelling, strong personalities, wit, emotion, intelligence, dramatic action, characterization, timing and energy. Truth and actually answering the questions asked in interviews, are always options. Desirable, but certainly not mandatory.

Paxman starts the segment with Black's biographer, Tom Bower, who sets the stage with some zingers of his own about his lordship:

"A millionaire with a billionaire's living standard."
"Has always played the victim card in defence of his criminal behaviour."
"Believes he's God and everyone must bow to him."

Then comes the interview.

Here are my edited highlights of the edited Black interview, starting with the first question:

Paxman: (Polite tone. No warm-up question. Jumps straight in. No mention of book) "Do you think prison made you a better person?"


Black: (False modesty. Uses interviewer's name to indicate equality and respect). "Hard for me to say, Jeremy."

Paxman: "But you are a convicted fraudster!"


Black: (Doesn't rise to bait. Instead gives highly questionable answer focusing on details of trial.) "No, I'm not... We got rid of all the counts and we had the prosecuting statute declared unconstitutional."

Paxman: (Spreads hands, looks as if no sane man could deny this.) "It is the opinion of the judge... and you have been convicted..."


Black: (Only slightly irritated) "Will you stop this bourgeois priggishness!"

Paxman: (Pushes harder) "It's not bourgeois priggishness. You're a criminal..."

Black: (Outraged by the word "criminal") "No, I'm not a criminal ..."

Paxman: (Offering a trap) "You just misunderstood what was legal?"

Black: (Avoiding the trap) "Everything I did was legal. I didn't misunderstand any of it. It was a smear job from A to Z."

Paxman: (Being reasonable.) "Then why did you plead guilty?"

Black: (Apparently angry, evades answer) "The whole system is a fraudulent, fascistic conveyer belt of a corrupt prison system." (Throws in statistics about large number of Americans in jail. Ends triumphant) "How do YOU explain that?"

Paxman: (Thrown by Black suddenly becoming interviewer) "I don't think I have to..."

Black: (Triumphant. Smiling) "Give it a try."

Paxman: (Puzzled) "Why?

Black: (Justifies) "Before, you accused me of being a criminal, give it a try..."

Paxman: (Justifies again) "But you're a convicted criminal..."

Black: (Suddenly attacking) "No. You're a fool. You're just a gullible fool. You're a priggish, gullible, British fool who takes seriously this ghastly American justice system that any sane English person knows is an outrage."


In this last sequence, Black has turned the tables, changed from interviewee to interviewer, an old trick and fine theatre. And he's thrown enough insults to get quoted in news reports. In the next part of the interview, the two men discuss Black being Roman Catholic but not penitent about his conviction.

Black: (Patronizes and justifies) You see Jeremy, your problem is you have no idea how that system operates..."


Now comes the highlight.

Paxman: "What astonishes... what will astonish our viewers, I suspect, is that a man who's been through all this should show no humility, no shame."


Black: (In full martyr fury, outraged, voice high, glares at Paxman, seemingly close to losing control.) "Of course not. I've been persecuted half to death. I don't have any shame. I'm proud of what happened. Proud of having been in a U.S. federal prison and survived as well as I did...

"I'm proud of having gone through the terribly difficult process of being falsely charged, falsely convicted and ultimately almost completely vindicated without losing my mind, becoming irrational, ceasing to be a penitent and reasonable person and actually being able to endure a discussion like this without getting up and smashing your face in which is what most people would do if they'd been through what I have been."

Paxman: (Clearly not worried that the threat is anything more than bluster) "Well, go ahead do... do your..."

Black: (Who has just threatened violence) "No, no, no, I don't believe in violence."


And so it went. So what does it all mean? Actually very little.

You should know that there's a simple, unspoken deal involved in interviews at this high level. (Canada has no equivalent to Newsnight since CBC's magnificent This Hour Has Seven Days was killed by the government and Mother Corp 46 years ago.)

Both the players in this sort of interview know the deal. The interviewee wants to sell his book. So the more outrageous he is, the more news stories will be written and the more copies he'll sell. The interviewer, meantime, wants to polish his reputation as the gutsiest, meanest sonofabitch in the valley. So the more outrageous he is, the more news stories will be written and the more viewers he'll get.

For both Black and Paxman this was a love affair consummated in heaven. Before the red light went on, I suspect Baron Black of Crossharbour had adapted Sir Humphrey Appleby's advice about being interviewed in the great Yes, Prime Minister TV satire:

"Go in with something to say and say it -- irrespective of the question. You can always say 'that's not the real question' and then ask the one you want to answer."

Loading Slideshow...
  • Lord Black of Crossharbour, aka Conrad Black, was HuffPost Canada's guest at its most recent editorial lunch on Thursday.

  • Black, who returned to Canada on May 4 after serving nearly four years in prison candidly answered questions on a range of topics, from his personal experiences in prison to his determination to fight to keep his Order of Canada, from his recent libel lawsuit against Random House to his future plans.

  • Black appeared unruffled by the subjects raised by the HuffPost editorial team; throughout the luncheon he discussed his recent travails, and at times became impassioned in his answers -- about the need for prison reform, about those who have sought to defame his reputation, and about the future of politics and political discourse in Western democracies.

  • At the end of the luncheon, when asked what he thinks is the public's greatest misperception of him, Black replied that it was the belief that he was "pompous."

  • A word cloud illustrating some of the more interesting vocabulary deployed by Black during the editorial board meeting.

  • Conrad Black On The Privatization Of Prisons

    Toronto, Ont. -- Conrad Black, former media baron and a recipient of the Order Of Canada dropped by for lunch with Huffington Post Canada's editorial board. There he spoke with Daniel Tencer on the negative effects of private prisons

 

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albertarick
These are questions for wise men with skinny arms
09:37 PM on 10/28/2012
What it means, is that this pillar of the community, millionaire, order of Canada holder, etc... has just set the bar for behavior among 'the chosen ones', lower again. The Crittenden/Frum/Worthington unholy trinity's sycophantic rants have been bad enough, but you Mr. Knight?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Juanne Michaud
Proud Canadian, loony lefty
10:01 PM on 10/27/2012
Mr. Black has always demonstrated a clear lack of remorse for all of his "sins"; this goes back to his days at Upper Canada when he was expelled for selling exam results.

I suspect his outbursts are evidence that, in his mind, he has done nothing wrong (but has a niggling sensation that maybe he has, after all.)

I do agree with his view on American prisons, however. The popular view seems to be that many are getting away with murder (literally) but I think this is due to sensationalized coverage of certain high-profile cases. I suspect that it may be literally murder to serve time in prison for some people.

I will also add that too many people who shouldn't be in jail are.

A final thought: Mr. Black was vigorously prosecuted for his acts. Why are those on Wall Street who totaled the economy United States (and to some extent, the entire world) like a drunk driver crashing into a tree, still walking around free?

Heavens, forget jail -- why has no one even been charged? If Mr. Black is worthy of prosecution, then surely these people are as well.
04:57 AM on 10/27/2012
Brilliant article! Amusing, insightful and educational. So its all a game played by two chess-masters.
11:08 PM on 10/26/2012
Conrad Black happens to be right in his basic premise that the American system is set up to get convictions above all,with justice being just a sometime thing. Mother Jones magazine has a great article this month -- by a US journalst who was formerly a hostage in Iran-- about how US prisoners can be shoved into solitary confinement for years on end just because their jailer doesn't like them, and they can do absolutely nothing about it. The US justice system is extremely brutal, and Conrad Black is justifiably proud of having survived it. Good for him. Let's hope his book makes a difference for those poor b*****ds held in US prisons. I for one intend to read it.
04:58 AM on 10/27/2012
Interesting comment. And by the way, I agree.
07:32 PM on 10/26/2012
And now we see Mr. Black being mocked on a British Satire Show (BBC). I am dumb founded. Let the guy alone. He has done his time. If he is in denial for his crimes, why continue to bully him?? Why make fun of him?? What is in it for both the interviewer and the audience?? Have we not had enough discussion about this issue of hurting people needlessly in the past two weeks??

What role does journalism have in bullying?? Do they have a right to do it without reprimand??
05:01 AM on 10/27/2012
One cannot help but feel viscerally about this type of behavior. But remember Conrad is one of the biggest predators out there. On the other hand, I do admire his spirit. He might play the victim, but really he isn't.
06:04 PM on 10/26/2012
I loved that interview. I found it fascinating. Like you, I dissected it. I was blown away at the words used by Mr. Black. I liked his defense. He was being attacked. I felt he actually used considerable restraint. I am sure he anticipated this type of getting under the skin questioning from journalists upon his release. Yes, there may have been some practicing of this performance before hand but my guess is that some of this came right from Black heart. He was and is angry. Who wouldn't be?? He spent precious years in jail. The stuff about his wife and her spending habit in this interview was just poking the stick in an open wound. Yeah, great interview. Two dynamos dueling.
05:03 AM on 10/27/2012
Fascinating character. He's guilty as hell, but one can't help but feel empathy for him.
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albertarick
These are questions for wise men with skinny arms
12:44 PM on 10/28/2012
I feel more empathy for the widows of Ravelston Directors McDougald and Eric Phillips, the Dominion workers' pension plan and the other victims of his career stripping public corporations of shareholders wealth. Not to mention the other inmates who were forced to endure his presence during his prison tenure.