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Cheap Shots Ruined Gun Registry Debate

Posted: 02/ 9/2012 3:53 pm

The gun registry debate has been one of the more disappointing spectacles in the current Parliament, highlighted by MP Larry Miller's woefully inappropriate references to Hitler in House debate Tuesday.

Throughout the debate -- unduly abbreviated by Conservatives invoking "time allocation" yet again -- the government has boasted of its "mandate" to abolish the registry given "consultation" with Canadians during the last federal election. While the elimination of the registry was somewhat discussed during the election -- and hardly at all in Quebec -- never once were Canadians (let alone Quebeckers) -- told of the impending plan to destroy all of the data and information the registry contained.

Moreover, as polls demonstrate, Quebeckers publically oppose and reject any notion that the government has a mandate to abolish the registry, let alone that they have a right to delete the records contained therein. When asked on this point, the government asserted that the two go hand-in-hand, with Public Safety Minister Toews going as far as to say, "there is no distinction between the registry and the data."

Clearly, there is a distinction to be made between the two. The apparatus of collection could be dismantled without the records being erased. The Government could, quite easily, transfer its records to Quebec or any other province that requested them. Simply put, whether to continue the registry and what to do with its records are two distinct questions. They should have been treated as such, and informed debate could then have proceeded on both fronts.

Indeed, opposition on this point was ignored and those who suggested anything contrary to the government's position were painted as somehow uninformed, as reflected in Minister Towes' comment: "I have a lot of respect for the public safety minister in Quebec. He is certainly a dedicated public servant. However, I find it hard to believe that when the government said it would destroy the registry he did not realize that meant the data." Surely, if the two issues were so intertwined, Quebec would not be -- as it is -- planning to sue the government for access to the records.

Beyond the conflation of these two issues, the debate demeaned itself with its vilifying rhetoric. As was widely reported, Conservative MP Larry Miller said in debate: "I would like to share with the House a quote from former Liberal justice minister Allan Rock: 'I came to Ottawa last year, with a firm belief that the only people in Canada who should have firearms are police officers and the military.' Does that sound familiar? Adolf Hitler, 1939."

He shortly thereafter read a quote from Liberal Senator Sharon Carstairs and again related it to Hitler.

While he apologized after Question Period, his exact words were, "It was inappropriate to use his name in the House and I apologize to anybody it may have offended." As my colleagues pointed out -- apologizing for using his name is a far cry from apologizing for the meaning of the comments and all that they implied.

UPDATE: Since this post was written, Mr. Miller has qualified his apology, stating "Just in order to take the buzz off and what have you, I partially retracted the statement in the House," and adding that he stood by the veracity his remarks. I rose in the House late Thursday to address Mr. Miller's subsequent statement and said: "It is clear that such references to Hitler -- thereby trivializing and demeaning the Holocaust and attributing or ascribing what has become a metaphor for radical evil to those who comment on or conduct matters that have no relation or comparison to Hitler's crimes of mass atrocity -- are as odious as they are ignorant and have no place in this House. ... Let there be no mistake about it .... Hitler did not take away guns from Jews, Mr. Speaker. Hitler murdered Jews, who had no guns." Further remarks can be read here.

Frankly, it is surprising that the Conservatives did not react more strongly to this given their stance when an NDP member made a Mussolini reference several years ago. At the time, the Chief Government Whip railed in protest saying, "Let us just imagine if this is allowed to stand. What will be next? There will be people in this place compared to Adolf Hitler."

Indeed, it is very surprising that even these heinous remarks were referenced at all given that Miller was reading from prepared remarks, making the matter even more inexcusable.

Regrettably, this incident was part and parcel of similar government attacks on the opposition -- such as repeated baseless assertions impugning the integrity of proponents of the registry, that they are motivated by a desire to see "hunters, sports shooters and farmers ... penalized through the criminal process."

Yet, for all the rhetoric, the government has yet to address the support for the registry by law enforcement and police groups across the country; the government has yet to respond to the concerns of women's groups such as the Fédération des Femmes du Québec (FFQ), the Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale and the Fédération de Ressources d'Hébergement pour Femmes Violentées, all of which support the registry; and it is yet to counter the expert testimony that the gun registry saves lives, prevents suicides, and protects law enforcement officers.

Perhaps most troublingly, the government has yet to explain why it won't provide Quebec the registry records it seeks, even though it is in its power to do so.

Simply put, the House here had an opportunity for civilized and informed debate, yet missed the mark entirely. Parliamentary debate could have -- and should have -- provided an opportunity to address the merits of the registry and, in particular, Quebec's concerns. Ultimately, Quebecers and Canadians for or against the registry deserved better.


 
The gun registry debate has been one of the more disappointing spectacles in the current Parliament, highlighted by MP Larry Miller's woefully inappropriate references to Hitler in House debat...
The gun registry debate has been one of the more disappointing spectacles in the current Parliament, highlighted by MP Larry Miller's woefully inappropriate references to Hitler in House debat...
 
 
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05:30 PM on 02/10/2012
I don't see any of the leftist media decrying Liz May when she said Canada, by selling to China, was becoming part of the "Axis of Oil".. But then goes right into the loony bin by saying that China will sell our oil to Iran to get around the blockade?????? She actually thinks Iran imports oil, and the blockade is going prevent that.. She must be getting her cues from that NDipper that thinks Canada's population is 9 million .. Yup.. The NDP opposition is going to be the new Canadian Gong Show!
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TonyOnly
Truth matters.
06:55 PM on 02/10/2012
Yeah. What a laff. Iran importing oil would be about as ridiculous as Canada importing oil.

Oh, wait a minute! We do import oil. And a lot of it. At full market price. To serve the needs of Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes. No wonder many countries think Canaduh is loony.
01:20 PM on 02/10/2012
Actually Irwin, it has been shown time and time again that most actual police officers dont care for the registry, and frankly, being a woman, or a feminist, doesn't make you an expert on gun crime. Every argument for gun control presented by liberals is easily refuted, and has been many, many times over, the fact that you are either too unintelligent to understand or too dishonest to accept those truths doesn't change the fact that they are truths.
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TonyOnly
Truth matters.
07:56 AM on 02/10/2012
Many conservatives don't realize the central Canadian provinces of Ontario and Quebec have more than 20 million people and what that means. They don't know there's more people living in Southern Ontario than live on all the Prairie provinces combined and how population density and diversity affects the governing and policing of urban centers.

So conservati­ves want to turn back the clock to a simpler, more tranquil time. But in the major population centers, life happens quicker and sooner. Conservati­ves don't understand that the lessons they're learning now, we learned a long time ago. And turning back the clock to what didn't work before is not an option for us.
07:48 PM on 02/10/2012
What you don't realize is that there is a pretty high rate of firearms ownership even in Ontario, and Quebec, and that this is not a rural vs. urban issue. This is simply an issue of what works and what doesn't, and Canadians not wanting to waste any more time and money of this issue!

Please explain what "lessons" the Conservatives are learning now, and who the "we" is that already learned them?

You might want to do some research into the lessons being learned in the US as far as gun control, and firearms ownership goes. Concealed carry is a growing idea, and it would seem that statistics across the US indicate a rapidly decreasing crime rate, while they are seeing a steadily increasing rate of firearms ownership. Many states with little to no gun control seem to be have some of the lowest crime and murder rates.

And just so we are clear, I am from the GTA. The gun registry doesn't work better there then it does in the prairies of out West! It is the same useless tool and Canadians are sick of paying for it!
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TonyOnly
Truth matters.
08:35 PM on 02/11/2012
The facts are, there's 30,000 people killed with guns every year in the US. The Canadian equivalent would be 3000 yearly. But we actually have less than 300. Why do you think that is? Because there's more boogeymen in the US? I ain't buyin it. It's because we have much stricter gun control. Much tighter restrictions on who can sell guns, the purchase process, and the transportation and use of guns.

In the US, a person can go out of state, buy 20 or 30 handguns, sell them illegally on the streets of NYC, and there's no follow up. And they can do that every month. You don't think that contributes to the number of people being killed by people with guns? You want Canada to copy US style looseness on gun control?

For the most part, Canada is still at a point where there's no need to even own a gun, let alone carry a concealed weapon. But if you follow the American example you'll end up with the American result. Only a fool would think that wouldn't happen to us.
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07:38 AM on 02/10/2012
Get over it, everyone knew when we elected the Conservatives the gun registry would be gone. Even Liberals knew it and used it as an issue. Quebec didn't vote for the Tories, probably one reason was the promise to abolish the gun registry. And the remark about Hitler, Hitler existed, he led a country, he said things so to quote him is do different than quoting Sir John A.

The difference is the context of the quote and how it is used. Miller's quote was simply a comparison where Liberals like yourself said something similar to Hitler in a similar context. Does this quote reference make you or anyone else "evil" as Hitler is widely acknowledged to be, no it just points out that an idea taken in context might not be such a good idea.

Knee jerk "intellectualism" is a real problem in the media, if you are reading this post, even though I used the "H" word and its defence, it is to the Huff's credit.
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TonyOnly
Truth matters.
07:23 AM on 02/10/2012
Cheap shots and insults have so long been a substitute for debate by intellectu­ally bankrupt conservati­ves, that they actually consider it to be a valid argument.

Notice how Saskatchew­an, one of the conservati­ve heartland provinces, celebrated over the last few days the census confirnati­on of their population growth to over 1 million people.

That's the root of the problem with Canadian conservati­ve conceit. Many don't realize the central Canadian provinces of Ontario and Quebec have more than 20 million people and what that means. They don't know there's more people living in Southern Ontario than live on all the Prairie provinces combined and how population density and diversity affects the governing and policing of urban centers.

So conservati­ves want to turn back the clock to a simpler, more tranquil time. But in the major population centers, life happens quicker and sooner. Conservati­ves don't realize the lessons they're learning now, we learned 40, 50 years ago. And turning back the clock to what didn't work before is not an option for us.
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Hal Wood
03:02 AM on 02/10/2012
Irwin Cotler, you are a Liberal and can't quite understand that the records are incomplete yet full of personal information that you have no business knowing. You are also against a new self-defense bill. Canada's definition at this point seems to be whomever runs the fastest lives. There have been many cases of law -abiding people alone at night being beaten or even murdered, maybe if they felt secure enough in Canadian law ,they could have used pepper spray or something to save themselves. Deny known convicts of anything resembling a weapon and try and feel for the innocents.
02:03 AM on 02/10/2012
The bottom line is Quebec's fight for the records is symbolic at best, and they know that keeping them will not do a damn thing. They are simply playing to the crowd, and anyone who understands the registry and how it works knows this!

I am also sure that the average Canadian is sick of this debate and could really care less one way or the other. Articles like this are an insult to your readers, as it is a non issue, and at this point a lost cause on your part. The only purpose this article serves is to once again attempt to promote your own leftist, anti gun views, under the guise of a political article.
02:02 AM on 02/10/2012
The lies and hysterics from the opposition benches is what ruined the debate.

The same lies and hysteria from the C391 debate, and Mark Hollands ranting and raving that was absolutely shameful to say the least!

The same lies that you want to keep pushing in this article!

To address your argument that the Chiefs of Police opinions should be taken as the last word on the topic, I would just like to point out that this same group also lobbied against the Charter of Rights And Freedoms! This fact alone makes their opinion as good as garbage in my books. They are a political organization more than a law enforcement one! They, just like you, have absolutely zero proof that the registry has saved any lives!

Now onto Quebec and the records. Please explain what good the records would be if not maintained? Without a Federal registration program the records would be out of date in a matter of days, or weeks! Quebecers buying firearms from out of province would have to register the guns themselves, as no seller out of province would follow some Quebec legislation. You would likely be met with major non compliance in Quebec as well, as the registration would now not be federal criminal law! Also as I am not from Quebec or ever plan on going there the Quebec gov. can keep their hands off of any records of mine.
09:37 PM on 02/09/2012
It's too bad MP Miller apologised for his speech comparing Liberal Sharon Carstairs remark about social engineering Canadians to Germany in the 1930s. As distasteful as it may sound, it was the truth. The Liberal Firearms Act C68 is the only legislation aside from the now defunct War Measures Act that allows police to force their way into a innocent citizens home without a warrant on suspicion that a firearm may be present. The most recent horrifying even like this happened last month when someone called in a false complaint in Winnipeg about a gun, resulting in an innocent man being taken away in handcuffs in front of neighbours while his elderly parents were thrown out of the house so the SWAT team could ransack the place. Is this really Canada? Is this the peaceful, tolerant country we tried to create? The Firearms Act was created by a political party that once billed itself as the party of moderacy, tolerance and a just society. In reality, the Liberals have become a party of the extreme left, just like the NDP. Innocent gun owners should not be the target of laws designed to intimidate and unfairly jail them. Canadians clearly understand this, the Liberal Party does not and as such will not hold power again for a long, long time.
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07:42 PM on 02/09/2012
That's what you call a smack down.