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Marni Soupcoff

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Drunk Drivers? Put Them Away, But Don't Take Their Truck

Posted: 01/17/2013 5:07 pm

This week, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that it was not a disproportionate penalty for a Quebec man to be forced to give up his truck after repeat drunk driving convictions. According to the Canadian Press, the man, Alphide Manning, had argued that letting the government seize the vehicle would be too severe a punishment since the truck was Manning's only asset. But the high court's decision pointed to Manning's sorry criminal record, which included "five convictions on alcohol-related driving offences and three for breaches of probation orders or undertakings," and concluded that the forfeiture of the truck was not out of bounds.

It's an unfortunate result.

Perhaps I should explain that I don't have any particular sympathy for Manning. He has repeatedly put others in danger by mixing alcohol with driving, and has not followed the rules he was given by the court. Therefore slapping him with a severe penalty is warranted. I would not shed any tears for him over a healthy prison sentence, for example. But I do have a problem with the Crown taking his truck.

As a criminal, Manning has defaulted on his part of the citizenship bargain. The price for that is, and should be, a deprivation of the criminal's liberty -- being confined to jail or being required to fulfill certain conditions. But the price should not be being forced to enrich the government by turning over private property to it.

As dangerous as it is to treat drunk drivers too lightly, it's equally dangerous to entrench a legal precedent that offers an incentive for government prosecution in the form of a valuable prize that the government gets to keep if it wins. The last thing we want is a situation where (as the non-profit public interest law firm the Institute for Justice put it in the context of civil forfeiture) law enforcement ends up policing for profit.

The Quebec government says it wants to get tougher on repeat drunk drivers. I say, by all means.

It's possible, however, to get tougher while still staying within the bounds of what constitutes a straightforward and balanced set of penalties. Consider: incarceration and probation make the government no better off, and unlike forfeiture -- which hits the Ferrari owner far harder than the Chevy owner -- it's the same for all those convicted.

Truly, if the ultimate goal is using the criminal justice system to keep drunk drivers from getting back behind the wheel at all for a certain period of time, a custodial sentence is a lot more likely to be successful than grabbing the driver's car, anyway.

It's a fairer way to go about it too.

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  • 10. British Columbia

    2.15, and a 27% decrease from 2005 to 2009.

  • 9. Alberta

    2.03, and a 12.5% decrease from 2005 to 2009.

  • 8. Manitoba

    2.82, and a 33.5% increase from 2005 to 2009.

  • 7. New Brunswick

    3.60, and a 24% decrease from 205 to 2009.

  • 6. Newfoundland

    4.57, and a 51% decrease from 2005 to 2009.

  • 5. Nova Scotia

    4.86, and a 30% increase from 2005 to 2009.

  • 4. Ontario

    5.46, a 21.5% decrease from 2005 to 2009.

  • 3. Prince Edward Island

    5.58, and a 128.5% increase from 2005 to 2009.

  • 2. Quebec

    5.70, and a 25% decrease from 2005 to 2009.

  • 1. Saskatchewan

    8.44, and a 27% increase from 2005 to 2009.

 

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This week, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that it was not a disproportionate penalty for a Quebec man to be forced to give up his truck after repeat drunk driving convictions. According to the Cana...
This week, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that it was not a disproportionate penalty for a Quebec man to be forced to give up his truck after repeat drunk driving convictions. According to the Cana...
 
 
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06:59 PM on 01/19/2013
While I agree with the general premise, the article doesn't clearly explain where the money goes. Are the individuals making the arrests (police), pursuing convictions (lawyers) or making the final decisions (judges) profiting? If not, the conflict of interest doesn't really exist. In other words, there wont be more vehicles revoked on the premise of profits.

Incarcerating individuals is not a great solution. Besides the fact that it's expensive, it also removes someone from society and puts them in a situation where they might be exposed to gangs, drug abuse and violence (Canadian prisons aren't always pretty). That puts the individual at higher risk of re-offending (in addition to the fact you removed them from their job, home and life).

There is also the problem that some consequences (ex. removing their license) don't truly prevent an individual from re-offending. There have been cases of individuals committing repeated drinking and driving offenses even after being fined and having their licenses revoked. So the solution to this problem was simple: remove their vehicle.

This is an individual we don't want on the roads and shouldn't be driving...so why should they have a car?

As to where the money goes...well as a commenter posted, the legal costs are likely much higher than the price tag of the vehicle. However, if there was a conflict of interest situation (or such a concern was so high), the vehicle could the auctioned off, and the money go to the defendant.
03:52 PM on 01/18/2013
You only have to look south of the border to see the corruption "policing for profit" has caused.

After your first offence, a $20,000.00 fine, insurance is a flat rate of $20,000.00 yrly for the first five years following your conviction. 100% of this money goes to the victims and families of the victim of drunk drivers.
Second offense is 5yrs in jail, no time off for good behaviour and a life time ban on your license.
Stopped driving without a license after a conviction for drinking driving results in a life time loss of license and 10yrs in jail, no time off. Ten years, period.
Problems solved, or at least mostly solved and a hell of a lot better than the current system.
When there is the death of innocent people, children no less, I don't want to hear the arguement, that they're sick, addicted, or whatever. They're killing people, innocent people.

Both of my sisters have been hit by drunk drivers, both suffered life altering injuries that resulted in permanant injuries including the loss of organs.
The guy that hit my oldest sister had already killed his passenger while drunk behind the wheel as a teen, for which he got a fine, probation and community service at the time. He did three months after hitting my sister. My sister never recovered and died from complications 10 yrs later, they were a rough ten yrs for her.

He is likely driving as I am typing this.
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03:31 PM on 01/18/2013
I don't have an issue with a forfeiture order here.

Jail frankly doesn't do well when it comes to specific deterrence, because most of the repeat offenders are alcoholics (2nd offence is mandatory 30 days jail) and jail doesn't really change that.

Under s. 490 of the code it is offence related property and if he has that record the crown would undoubtedly elect by way of indictment. I'm empathetic that the guy loses his truck, but with a history of breaches and recidivism I don't see how he hasn't fettered away his right to his property under s. 490. The fewer the impaired drivers out there, the better.
12:19 PM on 01/18/2013
Couldn't disagree with this article more.

The idea that confiscation of property is worse than deprivation of liberty is nonsensical.
And the proposition that a rich person is more heavily penalized by having his ferrari seized than a poor person is by losing his old chev is also off base. These ideas come from a society that worships wealth and where private property is valued above health and happiness.

While I do agree that law enforcement agencies should not directly benefit from any penalties imposed, that should not preclude the seizure of assets in some situations.
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AlwaysCanadian
Lifelong Pacifist
11:32 AM on 01/18/2013
How is seizing a man's truck different from implementing fines? Parking tickets, speeding tickets etc. are all deemed to be proportional to the hazard to others. The money obtained "enriches" the government. Repeated drunken driving by a person may endangered the lives of hundreds of men, women and children. Taking away a truck seems an appropriate penalty in these circumstances.
10:56 AM on 01/18/2013
"It's an unfortunate result."

No, actually it is an appropriate result.

There are many examples where things are taken away from people beyond simple incarceration & probation. Lawyers can be disbarred, Drs lose their license to practice, MNR violators can lose anything that contributed to the illegal catch/act - boat, gun, fishing rod, truck, etc.

It is very appropriate for people to lose the tools that aided their crime. This is not about enrichment of the state, it is about setting deterrents & penalties.

With drunk driving, vehicles should be impounded & sold at auction [or a fine equal to that value] that then gets turned over to the victim's family or crown for various damages.

This specific case is just another example of someone who did not learn from previous convictions & had far too many 2nd chances.
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Nancy Stewart Cockburn
09:47 AM on 01/18/2013
Take his truck. He will probably do it again.
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09:04 AM on 01/18/2013
This person from your article broke the law repeatedly, so allegedly we should protect his truck and send him to prison at tax payer expense give him probation to get out and start the process all over again. May I suggest another idea instead, have the drunk driver pay the full cost of the trial or forfeit the vehicle instead. Some behaviors once in place allegedly cannot be changed due to the addiction to alcohol. Some I think simply don't care and refuse the realize that their actions have consequences. Make the consequences high enough to have people think about their actions. I think that those who participate in drug criminal activity may have their property confiscated, why is this any different?
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Torontosaurous
07:44 AM on 01/18/2013
How about a "legal purchase card" that could be revoked after conviction.It wouldn't stop all drunk drivers,but it would limit who could buy alcohol legally,I don't think the government wants to in the business of selling used cars.The costs of persecution are not offset by the spoils of confiscation.
06:35 AM on 01/18/2013
Fines and forfietures are well recoqnized as a penalty - and forfeiture is certainly a collectable and thererby effective form of fining. Ferrari vs Chevy can also be seen as equitable, like a rich man's time in jail being of equal valuel to a poor one's. Fortfeiture prpobably has its place if applied fairly and proportionally - as seems in the case of this habitual offender.
04:20 AM on 01/18/2013
the value of the vehicle will help defray the costs of taking him to court and may well save an innocent person rom having his life and his vehicle destroyed. Alcoholism is ugly and expensive. Maybe the companies making the stuff should have to kick in to help defray the costs.
01:42 AM on 01/18/2013
In some US counties and parrishes, there is a danger of highwaymen. That is, the police stops you, if you have cash on you, the police will claim that you are either using it to buy drugs or got it from a drug sale and will charge you will such unless you surrender the money. This is because forfeiture finances police departments over there. Having people surrender their property in this way is a bad development towards such things as this highwayman phenomenon.
11:53 PM on 01/17/2013
I don't know the details of this, but I have an argument I keep raising, and nobody ever seems to want to take it into considertion;

I've worked in bars, and in doing so, found out that it is ILLEGAL for a Barkeep to render you intoxicated. Yes, tha's right. In theory - never heard of it being persued - a person charged of public inoxication, could take the establishment to court for rendering them intoxicated. It's meant to be within the barkeepers judgement to cut you off when they deem you've had enough.

Similar laws should be placed in effect with liquor establishments. I've made this case before, I'll throw it out here and see how it bites.

An ID system, that only allows you to purchase X amount of alcohol in a liquor store within a certain range of time. If it's against the law to be drunk (you CAN be arrested for public intoxication), then we require more aggressive laws on how alcohol is handed. For those of you who will cry "What about events/parties/businesses that require larger amounts?" then you can get a special permit for purchase. Same as a festival permit and so on. Pay a fee, but be responsible for the outcome.

The system is flawed, severely flawed.
09:53 PM on 01/17/2013
I'd agree w/ incarceration if the sentences and the prisons themselves weren't such a joke. At times it feels prisoners enjoy more rights than those of us who willingly follow the law.
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AcunningDisguise
magnus gigas caput
09:26 PM on 01/17/2013
Put drunk drivers on bikes with bald tires in a snow storm sit back and watch the fun.