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Peter Worthington

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Greece Is Just the First to Fall

Posted: 11/03/11 01:07 PM ET

It's understandable why Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou (born in the U.S, and attended high school in Toronto) wants to hold a referendum before implementing draconian financial restraints that will cause riots, clashes with police, car burnings, acts of vandalism and anarchy.

He knows what has to be done, but undoubtedly supposes that if a majority of Greeks support austerity measures, that will neutralize hostility on the streets whenever the government takes unpopular but necessary action.

Understandable, too, is the outrage being expressed by the rest of Europe at Papandreou apparently reneging, or equivocating on what was assumed to be a slam-dunk decision.

So once again it's back to the drawing board... or maybe not.

By "going to the people" Papandreou proclaims he is practicing the essence of democracy. The fishhook is that if Greeks reject the deal with Europe, it virtually means that Greece is opting out of the European Union and dumping the euro in favour of going back to the drachma. Either way, wretched financial times are ahead for Greece.

If so, it'll be the first (and least important) domino to fall, but will almost inevitably lead to defaults by Italy, Spain, Portugal.

U.S. President Barack Obama is in Europe to add his two cents to the debate which, the way Europe is heading, could result in a worldwide recession. Again.

Looked at from another viewpoint, there's no way any bailout plan is a long-term solution to Greece's economic woes, brought on by shameful abuse by over-indulged unions, exorbitant pensions, cowardly and deceitful politicians cooking the books, and greedy, self-absorbed citizens.

So whatever Greece's leaders agree to, likely won't be fulfilled, and will be merely Band-Aids until next time.

Now an election looms, as confidence in Papandreou and his PASOK socialist party is at low tide. If a vote of no-confidence ousts the government, will things change for the better? Unlikely. The culture remains constant.

Greece has shown little sense of responsibility or willingness to endure necessary sacrifices. So be it. Will the Greek people support Papandreou in a referendum, and thus continue using the euro as its currency, as 17 of the European Union's 27 countries do?

If I were a betting person (and sometimes I am), I'd bet that a referendum would favour Papandreou, if only because the alternative would be so financially catastrophic.

If the Greek people vote not to accept stern measures in order to remain using the euro, and getting eight billion euro as Band-Aid bailout, then say goodbye.

Let 'em go. Let 'em make their own way until they change their minds and rejoin the club and adhere to existing rules. If that means another recession, or even a depression, better now than at some time in the future when damage will be even greater.

Canada as well as America will be hurt if (when) Greece officially defaults, and (or) Germany and France get fed up with all the hanky-panky and cut their losses.

No matter what, Canada will be better off than most countries -- thanks to our banking system which is widely recognized as the world's best -- thanks to Jean Chretien and Paul Martin (as finance minister), and now the sensible Harper government with Jim Flaherty as finance minister.

President Obama's contribution to emergency discussions in Cannes seem ironic, especially when he has contributed to the economic crisis in his own country, and his own future is threatened in next year's presidential election because of his failures.

 
It's understandable why Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou (born in the U.S, and attended high school in Toronto) wants to hold a referendum before implementing draconian financial restraints that...
It's understandable why Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou (born in the U.S, and attended high school in Toronto) wants to hold a referendum before implementing draconian financial restraints that...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Jerry Bourbon
12:39 PM on 11/04/2011
It appears that Greece is now actually running a small primary budget SURPLUS. This would allow them to eff-off the banks and go it alone, should they choose.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
koos458
The Weather is Aways Nicer in Coos Bay
12:19 PM on 11/04/2011
Greece borrowed money that they never were ever going to be able to pay back, and the banks knew it, but did it anyway because they would be making a huge profit while sticking the EU taxpayers with the bill. Down with the kleptocracy and on with the revolution.
10:51 AM on 11/04/2011
There isn't a single EU country that is adhering to the limits of debt in relation to GDP! So any rules and regulations apply to whom?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Jerry Bourbon
12:31 PM on 11/04/2011
The rules and regulations apparently only apply to those countries seeking subsidies from the German taxpayer.

Sounds fair to me.
01:04 PM on 11/04/2011
I don't think you understand...every EU member nation is limited to a certain percentage of their GDP when it comes to debt. Every single EU country is over the limit, INCLUDING Germany.
07:04 AM on 11/04/2011
what a remarkable concept, allowing the people of a western democracy vote on government policy instead of allowing power brokers and banks make dictat behind closed doors. this is what peter worthington thinks is unconscionable behavior by an elected official? and does anyone else see a trend here when people born in the u.s. or educated in the u.s. and acquiring u.s. citizenship, then return to their "homeland" and somehow become the president or prime minister as in georgia, greece, and libya. how many western/american educated politicians actually rule and direct their nations for the benefit of the u.s. and her allies? worthington is upset that greece may vote in favor of greece instead of in favor of western and american banks? if only more people voted in favor of their own national interest instead of the interests of washington, the cia, and the pentagon.

i have posted responses to worthington before and my opinions have yet to see the light of day. maybe todays censors will be more reasonable.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
11:56 AM on 11/04/2011
They sure put the people in their place. Paper or plastic, take-out or delivery. Those are decisions that regular people can handle. Our overlords will handle the rest.
02:23 PM on 11/04/2011
I'm not sure what you think the US has to do with this. The US may be blamed for many things, but we are only a bit player in the Greek debt and potential bailout saga. The Greek debt is by and large owed to European banks and the ECB, not US banks.

To think that the US is somehow directing Papandreou to bail out its "key" allies, like Greek, Italian, and French banks that hold the debt stretches the imagination. The US cares because it is worried that if Europe implodes, it will will take down the whole world with it. China is worried about the same thing, which is why they have committed to provide some financial support to Europe.

I agree that the deal smells fishy and doesn't seem to present a sustainable solution for the Greek people, but blame European leaders, not the US, on this one.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
03:06 PM on 11/04/2011
Well, not the United States government. The big banks and financials based out of the US. They were peddling those mortgage derivative nonsense to whoever was dumb enough to buy them. I will try to find you some articles that explain what I mean, but in the meantime you can check out Greg Palast. He is currently doing a huge expose on Goldman Sachs.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
03:11 PM on 11/04/2011
Here, this one does not go into much detail, but it gives some stuff on a few of the different ways that the big financials like Goldman Sachs put Greece in the poorhouse.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_fb4923c6-8594-51dc-bda5-c10a8563116d.html
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guveqzero
Inventor and Innovator
06:05 AM on 11/04/2011
Capitalists that charge 36% interest rates should be jailed. Likewise, government officials that go along with these businesses making slaves of the population should also be jailed. It shouldn't cause much problem in the prison population, they are only 1%.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mcpogo
11:44 AM on 11/04/2011
So that means there owuld be plenty of space for the present 1%ers to all be put in prison - for the rest of their lives and don't let them reproduce -they are a cancer on the world!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Jerry Bourbon
12:37 PM on 11/04/2011
If you are aware of "capitalists", or anyone else, charging Greece 36%, or half that, or one third that, please let us know.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Hoop Ojoop
03:16 PM on 11/04/2011
36%? No, but it makes for great class warfare propaganda.
04:14 AM on 11/04/2011
Peter Worthington seems to blame the patient for the desease however this is not a desease caused by smoking. I would question modern management practices from banks and investors who lend money to individuals (ie mortages) or countries (ie national depth) without the ability to pay it back. A country such as Greece which refuses to manage their own house should not now expect a bailout package from tax payers in other countries to enable the investors to reap profits. If these investors lent money to a country with a bad credit rating then let them take the fall as Iceland did when its citizens refused to subsidize greedy investors. This is a Euopean problem in that Euopean (also NA and SA-both Euorpean) somehow think the world should be moldd to their social and economic design. The fact of the matter is that many of this borrowing was done without the general population being aware and after the fact that elections were over with the intent to satisfy a needed majority of political parties for a majority. We are facing the same problem in Canada in that the federal government is downloading responsibilities to the provinces to cook their own books and eventually it will be downloaded to the municipalities and then the taxpayers.
12:12 PM on 11/04/2011
He is right on by stating that Greece's economic problems have been "brought on by shameful abuse by over-indulged unions, exorbitant pensions, cowardly and deceitful politicians cooking the books, and greedy, self-absorbed citizens."

A large percent of people working for the government, retiring in their early 50s with high pensions, health care completely free, college tuition free, and no real industry beyond tourism and agriculture to speak of.

They are clearly living beyond their means and a day of reckoning is coming either sooner (if they vote against the plan) or later (they go along with the plan for now).
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
XPat Lib
Living the quiet life in Greece
06:15 AM on 11/08/2011
Some of your comments have validity but you're off the mark on the retirement. It's not a "large percent" that retire at 50 in Greece. This is misinformation. Some public-sector workers in what is considered "hazardous" jobs (firemen, etc.) can retire at an early age - I believe 55 is the earliest - but only when they are eligible. Eligibility is calculated from the time an individual begins work and only if a person completes 35 years of work could they retire at 58 with full pension. This was in the past. More recently a worker must have been at least 60 - with 35 years of work - to receive a full pension. This, too, is being raised as a requirement of the new austerity measures. And, not all retirements are at full benefits. Those retiring early get lower pensions. Greece is not alone in Europe with these so-called low retirement ages but Greece is working of adjusting the system. Just like in America, a longer life-span, higher number of retirees, and less people in the work force contribute to the problem of less money available for pensions. Please do some research in the future.
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02:48 PM on 11/04/2011
well said
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Stoopid American
Trooth, justice, and the American way ...
01:22 AM on 11/04/2011
The Canadian cheerleading in this article is weak - and the anti-Obama bias shows how little the author really understands about American politics. I would like to read the editorial the author writes after the dominos fall in Europe, recession again grips America, and Canada has nobody south of the border to sell beer to.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
11:57 AM on 11/04/2011
Just means more beer for us!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Stoopid American
Trooth, justice, and the American way ...
01:40 PM on 11/04/2011
Good beer, too.
12:13 PM on 11/04/2011
The point he is making is that it is inevitable, its just a matter of timing. The sooner the better to get it over with and move on.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Stoopid American
Trooth, justice, and the American way ...
01:39 PM on 11/04/2011
That point I can agree with. The Canadian narcissism and anti-Obama part is what I object to.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
frank1946
Tell the Truth
12:09 AM on 11/04/2011
Greece and Italy and Spain will all Fall from the Euro...............the ECB will not purchase all this
losses !

America is next !
11:52 PM on 11/03/2011
The article writer forgot to add the criminal banksters and stock marketers who took advantage.

Whatever the ORDINARY Greek people did, those Greeks higher up and foreigners did most of the dirty.
12:30 PM on 11/04/2011
Millions of ordinary Greeks feel ENTITLED to a lifestyle their productivity and value creation cannot sustain. Its like a college grad that gets an expensive new apartment, new luxury car, new clothes, etc all on borrowed money because their wealthy friends can afford it. At some point the stuff will get taken away when they can no longer afford it and much crying will ensue.

We see the spoiled kids in the streets of Athens DEMANDING to be able to retire with full pension in their 50s, free medical care, free college tuition, numerous vacation and holidays, etc. The crying will evenutally stop and reality will set in.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
XPat Lib
Living the quiet life in Greece
06:17 AM on 11/08/2011
Really? You see all that, do you? Just where are you standing?
08:53 PM on 11/03/2011
It's easy for rich twerps to pontificate about non-rich people being reluctant to make do with less. It is relevant to ask this guy's net worth before we consider anything he has to say about the economic crisis.
11:56 PM on 11/03/2011
We are living in a time when the lower classes get as much of the blame as the upper classes can manage.

However, like the Great Depression, THIS time around was due mostly to the upper classes ruining the economy and not the little people.

Of course ordinary workers contributed to the economic meltdown, but they were minor players compared to the rich and upper classes.

****As always, I am talking about groups and not individuals.
12:15 PM on 11/04/2011
That is disingenuous. Anyone can have a relevant comment on economics regardless of their income. Simply waving your hand at him because he has been successful is not right.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
CroatianCritter
is keeping people honest
08:40 PM on 11/03/2011
Nowhere do you mention the real problem with all these countries, the adoption of the American standard of fiat money and corporate welfare and warfare. The economic system is the problem (The unions and other government programs are very minor issues. In this country, Medicare and Social Security are paid for. That did not stop our government from pillaging the programs and now forcing it to pay those programs back.) Without fundamental change to our economic system, all countries tied closely to the United States will fall (Including us). Our version of capitalism has reached its end and like the Soviet Union, we are heading to our own 1990 (The beginning of the collapse of communism). Greece will be first, Western Europe will fall shortly after with the big dominoes in North America going last (The Middle East is tied in with us and will also collapse). South America and Asia have done a good job trying to separate themselves from us but they will also suffer in the future due to the globalized economy. Your post lacks these very important details. If you want to know WHAT THE REAL PROBLEM IS, you need to look at our own Federal Reserve. They will be the primarily responsible party for our global economic collapse. No matter how often we see this repeat in history, the rich "elite" think they can run the world. But their own hubris takes them down every time.
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banana republican
Next in line for crumbs from the King's Table
08:22 PM on 11/03/2011
When the people learn they can vote themselves money, this will herald the end of the republic. Ben Franklin.
11:59 PM on 11/03/2011
"When the people learn they can vote themselves money, this will herald the end of the republic." ---- Ben Franklin.

You mean like big banks, big corporations, and Wall Street?

Actually, they buy the politicians and with the laws in their favor, they make a lot of money.

All the ordinary people can do is vote and hope the politicians give them something back.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
11:59 AM on 11/04/2011
I've tried to vote myself money a few times, but my account is still low. I don't think it is as easy as Mr Franklin seemed to think it is.
12:19 PM on 11/04/2011
I think he means the 47% that don't pay federal income tax in the US. Or the government employees and those on government pensions in Greece having an interest in voting themselves funding.
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drbob601
Soylent Green is People
03:43 AM on 11/04/2011
"“The mischief springs from the power which the monied interest derives from a paper currency which they are able to control, from the multitude of corporations with exclusive privileges which they have succeeded in obtaining...and unless you become more watchful in your states and check this spirit of monopoly and thirst for exclusive privileges you will in the end find that the most important powers of government have been given or bartered away...”
-Andrew Jackson
08:08 PM on 11/03/2011
Banks will continue to make bad loans so long as they know that taxpayers will bail them out. Let them fail and more prudent banks will take their place.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
01:16 PM on 11/03/2011
At this point I think the smart move for Greece is to default, move to the Drachma, and take its lumps. In the long run the people of Greece will be better off for it, while other nations continue to drag their heels, making the problem grow worse by the day.
12:00 AM on 11/04/2011
Maybe THAT is why the Greek government wants the people to vote....to decide for themselves if they want to suffer under the Euro or the Drachma.

Either way, the Greeks are going to suffer big time, but maybe they want to get the German/Eurozone yoke off their necks.
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04:28 AM on 11/04/2011
I don't know what "yoke" means, but sounds derogatory.

The Greek people in the last elections already voted out the party that lead the gov't that massed up all this debt, and hid the debt. Didn't help them much when at the same time the "subprime" (what a nice euphemism) crisis hit the country like other countries. It was wasn't the Eurozone that created that 2008 crisis. And it wasn't any of the countries that at least promise money to Greece that invented the financial instruments to speculate against a country's bonds.

Going back to Drachme means one thing: Will be real cheap to buy up Greece's assets for those who have money.

And finally: Why does a Greek tycoon plan to invest his money in German department stores now instead of helping his own country with his investments????
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sgillhoolley
Occupy the discussion.
08:11 AM on 11/04/2011
We spoke too soon. So much for the people getting to decide for themselves. Freedom happens on leap years only I guess, and then only for the one day. Why is this a system worth defending again?

Iceland defaulted and, although they are going through tough times now (who isn't), they will probably be better off for it down the road. Greece should probably do the same thing. The Euro cannot be saved, because it is not just about Greece. Portugal, Ireland, Spain...all are ready to crash. Italy is barely hanging on. Britain is trying to deal with the problem by putting it on the backs of the working people. France and Germany are barely keeping it together. All they are doing is dragging outa disaster that cannot be avoided.
12:56 PM on 11/03/2011
Things will get a whole lot worse before they get any better.

External debt to GDP ratio

Italy = 135%
Spain = 173%
France = 208%
Portugal = 239%
England = 384%
Ireland = 1098%

To put things into perspective, Greece is at about 174%
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drbob601
Soylent Green is People
03:49 AM on 11/04/2011
The new ECB chief is a former Goldman Sachs executive...so he probably likes banks very much. And unlike his predecessor, he knows how the monetary system works. Paper goes in one side, and money comes out the other.
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04:30 AM on 11/04/2011
If you happen to have a source/link for those figures I'd like to have a look at that. Would be interesting to compare German, US or Canadian debt to GDP ratio according to those criteria.